Powered FRFR Cabs - Educate Me

[Lozz196]

As above, I’m not too technical, I get that you don’t need an amp with a powered FRFR but what’s out there?

[itu]

A PA cab, a powered speaker without the preamp of a bass amp. It still may have a simple eq, or some adjustments, like gain.

 

Full range means wider response than of a bass combo.

 

Flat response should mean flat, but I say that it is still far from hifi.

[Dan Dare]

Many powered FRFR cabs are designed for PA use. Often, they will not have eq (or if they do, it's unlikely to be suitable for a bass), so you will need a bass preamp, which will ideally need to provide line level output (which rules out some pedal-type pre's) as PA cabs are typically intended to be driven by a mixer. As for what's out there, the answer is virtually anything your heart desires, but quality PA powered cabs that are suitable for bass won't be cheap. Trying before you buy is essential. Chinese plastic box cabs will rarely do a good job. Even a quality PA cab may not have the character you need to amplify bass well. I have quality PA cabs (Fohhn) and have tried them with my bass. The sound is super clean and rather sterile, a bit like a giant hi-fi (if you've ever run your bass through studio monitors, you'll know what I mean). Great for PA, less good for bass or instruments that rely on amplification to give the sound colour and character .

[xgsjx]

I’m on the FRFR route. Bass rig is a virtual one on my laptop & goes straight to the PA (via a mixer). At present, I’m just going into whatever PA there is (as long as it’ll handle bass, but I plan on getting a RCF 912 or 915 soon. 

My main reason for not having a physical bass rig is because I play synth too, so want something that can handle both. 

[Phil Starr]

To understand this I think you need to divide FRFR theory into two parts; full frequency flat response,  and then using an active PA speaker to do that.

 

Most bass amps and speakers are coloured, the frequency responses aren't flat and there may be other distortions too. That colouring has become part of what we all expect when we listen to a bass. Initially it was there because the amplification at the birth of electric bass just wasn't very good but generations of bassists used the colouring to their advantage to create music and sounds we all want to hang on to. The downside is that if you have rose tinted bass amps to listen to your bass is always going to have a rose tinted sound. Rose tinting is lovely of course and some people want to stay in that rose tinted world, but you might fancy a change. FRFR gives you your bass through clear glass spectacles. Multi effects units, emulators and so on will then let you add in whatever colours you want, you can buy in a ready made tint or mix your own depending upon your own creativity. It's really hard to get that exact rose tint to copy a particular amp and speaker but the fx have been good enough for as long time that you probably couldn't tell the difference once all the band are playing and the audience really won't. And that perfect P-bass Ampeg tone on you favourite record? That was probably recorded straight from the DI into the desk and fx applied afterwards, possibly mixed in with a little bit of what came out of the speaker.

 

So then the question is whether to use a PA speaker to get your FRFR sound. FRFR is nothing new as touring bands have used floor monitors for years. The advantage of using PA speakers is that they are produced in huge numbers, more is spent on their design and there will be a cost saving because of mass production. If they are designed to put the bass and kick through they will handle bass and buying a box with the amp in means they will be perfectly matched and the internal DSP will protect everything inside from even the most idiotic use.  The down side? All speaker designs are compromises, there isn't a perfect speaker out there and PA speakers are jacks of all trades. In cheaper PA's the bass driver will be quite limited, but that is true of cheap bass cabs. There is an issue with plastic cabs, a well built well braced wooden cab will beat a plastic cab every day, but the moulded cabs get better all the time. Portable PA cabs are designed to go on poles so their size and weight becomes an issue and some bass may be compromised to achieve portability.

 

So my experience? The best bass sound I have ever got has been out of a couple of RCF ART310 speakers on poles. On the stage floor they sound completely over blown. I also have some ART 745's for PA. The bass through them on poles sounds like it does through studio monitors. On stage on the floor I don't like them much without a lot of eq to reduce the bass bloom. For gigs I use a bass speaker designed to be FRFR the LFSys Silverstone with my bass amp set flat and a SansAmp doing the colouring in. For me the wooden box and exceptionally good bass speaker combined with truly flat response (I've seen the measurements)  works really well. What the audience get though is through the PA.

 

 

Hope that helps?

[Lozz196]

Thanks all who`ve contributed so far, am getting a clearer idea now, I suppose the next question is what`s out there. For most of my gigs I`ll be going ampless using my Sansamp/FOH, but for ones where a backline is needed I want to reduce the amount of gear I take due to continuing back issues. My set-up is Ashdown RM500 & Barefaced Big Baby 2 but if I can end up with a powered cab that weighs the same I`ll be cutting down the need for an amp. Not the biggest amount of gear to remove but anything I can do I think I now have to.

[BigRedX]

As you are all probably tired of hearing I've gone the FRFR route and I'm completely sold on it. In the majority of my rigs for the last 35 years all my important sound shaping was done at line level using various multi-effects and therefore my amps and cabs were supposedly there just to make the sound loud enough for me, the rest of my band, and very occasionally (when the bass didn't go through the PA) the audience to hear. Most of the time I was using PA amps to drive my cabs and therefore in was only a small step for me from that to an FRFR system. I haven't really wanted my choice of amp and cabs to influence my sound. It's fine if you always use your whole rig every time you play live and if the bass is going to be going through the PA it's done by mic'ing up the cab(s), but in the real world of equipment sharing and DI'ing the bass that simply isn't going to happen, and if your sound is important to you then removing as many variables from the equation as possible has got to be a good thing.

 

The typical PA-type FRFR isn't going to be perfectly flat, but it's a lot less coloured than a standard bass amp and cabs, so if you can sort out your sound at line level using something like a SansAmp or Helix then you're going to get a more consistent sound FoH and in the Foldback.

 

Theses days TBH even my FRFR is mostly redundant when I play live. For one band we've made a conscious decision not to have any amplification on stage and to rely on the foldback of the venue's PA. Even at the one gig we did where the "foldback" was a tiny personal monitor for the vocalist, because we have an otherwise silent stage we could hear everything else perfectly well from the PA speakers. For the other band the FRFR is only used at rehearsals and as a personal monitor for the smaller gigs where the quality of the foldback is unknown. Because of this I'm not particularly bothered about the sound coming out of the FRFR so long as it is sufficient for me to be able to hear that I am in time and time tune with the rest of the band. Because I love the songs that we play, I find that is all I need to give me the right vibe for putting on an excellent performance and I don't need to agonise about the on-stage mix not being perfect. I'll save that for when I've had a couple of million selling albums.

 

Finally since I switched to using an FRFR I have done two gigs where I needed to use it to supply the bass guitar sound FoH. In both cases it did a much better job than my traditional bass rig which on the few occasions I have not the bass in the PA had to be so loud to get decent bass guitar coverage in the venue that I could barely hear the rest of the band on stage. Using the FRFR with its better dispersion and projection means that I am only slightly louder than I would choose for personal monitoring levels.

 

 

[Phil Starr]

14 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Thanks all who`ve contributed so far, am getting a clearer idea now, I suppose the next question is what`s out there. For most of my gigs I`ll be going ampless using my Sansamp/FOH, but for ones where a backline is needed I want to reduce the amount of gear I take due to continuing back issues. My set-up is Ashdown RM500 & Barefaced Big Baby 2 but if I can end up with a powered cab that weighs the same I`ll be cutting down the need for an amp. Not the biggest amount of gear to remove but anything I can do I think I now have to.

If it helps I use a Warwick Gnome to power my Silverstone it's not ampless but it is pocket sized and fits in my bass case along with mains and speaker lead.

 

Your BB2 is pretty close to being FRFR and the same sensitivity as my Silverstone so I know it is going to be loud enough as a stage monitor. The power amp section of your RM500 is flat too so you are pretty much using FRFR already. The sound isn't going to be an issue for you. 

 

You say "have to" is this a back problem? I can't think of a PA cab as capable as the BB2 which will weigh less. To be fair Barefaced really are the ones to beat on weight reduction.

[Lozz196]

Thanks Phil, yes it`s a back problem and a lot of the problem is bending over amps/cabs to plug in this lead & that lead etc, as well as the actual lifting & carrying, that`s why I want to have as little to set up as possible. Most of my gigs I can do with my Sansamp into FOH but every now & then I may  need an on-stage sound, was just hoping that I can reduce the amount of items to both carry and set up to a minimum. The ideal I think would be Sansamp into powered cab.

[BassAdder60]

I don’t really get the “ampless” ideas etc ?? 
 

I don’t play large venues as we are a typical pub / club rock band and the PA is average but loud and mostly for vocals and kick drum. 
We take a guitar signal and my pass into the PA purely for the singers IEM ( only band member using them )

I love the sound of my amp / cab behind me and how it fits with the drums and guitar in small stages or setup spaces.

 

I understand though the situation where bad backs and health takes us into a different direction and to keep enjoying our hobby we look at alternative solutions.

Lozz … could you not get a band buddy to help with the setup / lifting etc and stay with a small cab and class D amp ? 
 

You have travelled a long road getting a sound you like 

[Hellzero]

I've used an FRFR solution for some time, but wasn't that convinced by the tone I got, there was always missing something.

 

It was a GSS FRFR 12+6 coupled to different pedal preamps : MarkBass Ground Stereo Pre (Alain Caron Signature), TrickFish Trilobite (twin Mike Pope Flexcore) or BassLab Step About (Greg Howard Signature).

 

I have severe back problems with a full official and medical recognition of my condition.

 

So, I ended up with a brand new generation GR Bass AeroTech Full Carbon 800 Combo (800 Watts/4 Ohms or 450 Watts on its own with a 12 inches speaker + tweeter), weighting ... 8.2 kilos and for more power, if needed, I also bought the brand new generation GR Bass AeroTech Full Carbon AT112+ (450 Watts/8 Ohms, same speaker configuration) weighting 6.3 kilos.

 

When I received them by courier, I thought they forgot to put the combo and the cabinet in the boxes as it was so light...

 

Now, it sounds the way I want.

[Lozz196]

Of course, I`d completely forgotten about GR Bass Aero - good call, thanks very much.

[Muzz]

Slightly off the FRFR route, but definitely in the 'easy carry monitoring' area, I've had all my tones coming from my Helix for a few years now, so even when I've used 'proper' backline (not done that for literally years, btw, other than house rigs) the amp's set pretty flat, and the Helix sends direct to the PA and to my monitoring/backline in parallel. If you're using a capable PA (and the modern stuff is very capable, even if it's the band's for a pub gig - two tops and a small 12" sub will kill even in a biggish rooom), then the heavy/FoH lifting will be done by the PA. Sooooo....not FRFR, but I use a small 12 combo (a Rumble, with a 'proper' Eminence in it), cut all the bass out and leave it pretty much flat, put it on a stand that points it at my head, and, what with the PA/sub doing the bottom end, it sounds just fine...combo weighs about 20lbs, the rest is just bits and bobs...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

15 hours ago, itu said:

Full range means wider response than of a bass combo.

That's what it means, but for the most part it's not the case. By and large bass combos and inexpensive powered PA boxes use the same woofers. In boxes of similar size they'll have similar low end response. PA boxes tend to use better high frequency components, which allows a lower crossover frequency. That doesn't make response any wider. It does make for better off-axis dispersion in the mids. The main difference lies in the amp EQ voicing. Bass amps tend to have a lot of coloration, powered PAs don't. Most players prefer the coloration of bass amps. If they didn't it wouldn't be there.

[Clarky]

Just thinking laterally, maybe get a small pedal board, velcro on the Sansamp and an Ashdown Ant (or some type of small power amp eg mini Sumo). You can just bring the pedal board and bypass the power amp if no rig is required, or plug the lot into your BF cab if you need a backline?

 

https://www.andertons.co.uk/bass-dept/bass-guitar-pedals/bass-overdrive-pedals/ashdown-the-ant-pedalboard-bass-amp

 

[warwickhunt]

I read and (try to) learn from all of these IEM/FRFR/Silent stages/PA carrying the whole band type of threads but I keep coming back to a few points that are frustrating me.  I like the sound of my amp(s) and cab(s), it is something which when I am playing is influencing my actual playing, listening experience AND interaction with other band members... the audience aspect for me has always been a case of 'If I'm enjoying it and the FOH is balanced then we are all good'.  

 

Now when I go amp less, I go into a pedal/preamp (presently trialling a NuX MLD as it has IRs so I can try to bring that cab colouration back which I like) and then I'm relying on the PA which by all accounts is decent but if we are going to get it to do the heavy lifting of the full band inc all of the bass then we need to bring along a bass bin to every gig (tops are RCF 15" units probably 7 series).

 

But what about 'me'?  

 

I'm not getting the same tone back through IEMs that I would through an amp+cab (even when wearing my custom moulded plugs for 15 years) added to which the guitar sounds like a bee in a bean can and the drums are even more removed than if I were just using ear protection as obviously the IEMs are adding bass/guitar/vocals into my ears, obscuring the drums (even with kick+snare in PA) and if I start using a frfr or monitor on stage then I'm carting along more gear and cluttering the stage with audio.

 

I'm just voicing this to try and help me figure out where I'm going with my equipment and how to achieve a pleasurable experience for me as well as the audience.

[Muzz]

I think it is, like pretty much everything involved with reproducing sound on a larger scale, down to EQ. Even well EQ'd, inears can be isolating unless the often-overlooked stage/room mic is added in, so the sound of the stage can open up the 'closed in' feeling of inears. A good system will allow individual monitor mixes for each person (often on a phone), and you can play with it from there, but if your bass doesn't sound the same in your ears, then it needs EQ-ing to suit. It's similar to when switching from coloured cabs to flatter-response ones - the amp/preamp needs tweaking to compensate for the lack of colouration...

 

Our sub (which as I mentioned above will fill a 150+ room) is a small 12", a simple one-man lift, and less hassle than a bass cab, considering it's for the whole band...

[jrixn1]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

Of course, I`d completely forgotten about GR Bass Aero - good call, thanks very much.

 

The newish Markbass MB58R Mini CMD 121 Pure also looks interesting, at 10.3kg.

Edited May 22, 2023 by jrixn1

[warwickhunt]

I think it is, like pretty much everything involved with reproducing sound on a larger scale, down to EQ. Even well EQ'd, inears can be isolating unless the often-overlooked stage/room mic is added in, so the sound of the stage can open up the 'closed in' feeling of inears.

 

We have 2 vocal mics live on stage, are you talking about adding a 3rd mic to use purely to add ambient sound into the IEM mixes?  Does that need to be a certain type of mic (plate type, dynamic or condenser)?  

 

A good system will allow individual monitor mixes for each person (often on a phone), and you can play with it from there, but if your bass doesn't sound the same in your ears, then it needs EQ-ing to suit. 

 

Yes I have access to my Aux on my phone so I cam mix in the band to suit but tbh it is generally a case of bish bash bosh at a gig to get set up asap and on playing.  Added to which we frequently use dep drummers.  So am I EQing my sound at the desk for my Aux mix or am I EQing the bass send in my pedal?  

 

Our sub (which as I mentioned above will fill a 150+ room) is a small 12", a simple one-man lift, and less hassle than a bass cab, considering it's for the whole band...

 

Which sub is this as the guitarist owns the tops and desks and as I am literally carrying a bass, a pedal and a set of leads to the gig he has suggested I invest in a bin.  Our other band has a 15" RCF bin but it is way to big/heavy for me to hump about on my own if I was getting one.

[Muzz]

We use a spare overhead mic for 'room', which opens up the inears - IME the vocal mics are too focused on the voices themselves, plus the room mic can be adjusted separately for 'colour'

 

I have my bass EQ'd in my Helix (which is done in headphones as well), but any monitoring EQ-ing required I do on the Aux channel - we had a couple of Technical Rehearsals to get this right, and, vastly different drummers notwithstanding, the theory is that this shouldn't change, it's only the FoH mix/EQ which should need adjusting per the room...

 

This is the sub we use: not cheap, I know, but we only use 12" RCF tops, and this completes them - I can't think of a gig (pubs and clubs) where we've thought we needed more...   https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/rcf-sub-702-asii-12-active-subwoofer 

[warwickhunt]

Yep, got you @Muzz

 

That sub seems sensible size and weight but I'm torn as to whether I suggest that the guitarist and I spend similar values (£800ish) on buying 1 new FOH each.  My reasoning being if we get a pair of good quality FR PA cabs we can get away without a sub AND it means that I own a bit of kit that I can use in other projects.  I play guitar in a duo with my wife where a single quality PA cab would suffice as FOH and my Cheap Trick tribute would benefit as these 2 new PA cabs would be in that band and the singer in that band has a 15" RCF sub.  

 

Not as convoluted as it sounds but me owning a 12" bass bin has no practical purpose outside of this one band situation... a good PA cab has more uses to me. 

 

[Muzz]

Well, I play (with the same bass-dialled-out-12-combo as a monitor) in another band that has no sub, but the RCF 15" tops, and that sounds pretty good, too (and goes loud) - that sounds like it might be a more practical solution for you...

[warwickhunt]

Yeah the guitarist has RCF 15 tops at the moment but I do wonder if upping the level of quality / newer unit in the RCF range might make more sense.  Off to message him and gauge feeling.

[Muzz]

Sounds like a plan... 👍

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

I'm not getting the same tone back through IEMs that I would through an amp+cab (even when wearing my custom moulded plugs for 15 years) added to which the guitar sounds like a bee in a bean can and the drums are even more removed than if I were just using ear protection as obviously the IEMs are adding bass/guitar/vocals into my ears, obscuring the drums (even with kick+snare in PA) and if I start using a frfr or monitor on stage then I'm carting along more gear and cluttering the stage with audio.

 

I'm just voicing this to try and help me figure out where I'm going with my equipment and how to achieve a pleasurable experience for me as well as the audience.

IMO the 'Everything through the PA with no backline' pendulum, as opposed to huge backline with PA for vocals only, has swung too far. I started downsizing the backline, upsizing the PA, back in the 80s, based on the premise that the backline need only be large enough to have sufficient stage volume to allow one to get their preferred tone and feel, while the room is driven by the PA. That means no 810s, no Marshall stacks. Not even Vox AC30. But it doesn't mean no amps. As in all things the best results are had when one practices moderation.