Getting a good live sound

[MikeStockport]

I play in a covers band that does gigs in the Greater Manchester area. One issue that's puzzling me a bit at the moment is that, using one or other of my multi-effects pedals (I have a Zoom MS60B and a Mooer Prime P1), I can get a sound that sounds great when I listen to it in isolation at home, but when we're gigging in a pub and there are drums and lead guitar and keyboards playing at the same time, the "great sound" gets lost and I either get an indistinct bassy noise or a sound that doesn't sound bassy enough and doesn't drive the sound of the band. Fiddling with effects and/or EQ while playing isn't very easy. Does anyone have any tips or tricks to defining a sound that sounds just as good in a live setting as in a rehearsal? (We don't rehearse at gig volume, by the way - if that's the only answer then it's not all that helpful.)

[Silvia Bluejay]

"... a sound that sounds just as good in a live setting as in a rehearsal" doesn't exist I'm afraid. Your bass will always sound different in each of the rooms you play in, even before considering how it sits with the rest of the band.

Short of getting a sound engineer with a good pair of ears, knowledge of bass frequencies and how to manage them, and experience of what to do to correct the problems that you hear in each different venue, I would suggest you go wireless with your bass and walk up front while soundchecking with the band. Then go back to your rig - or even better, your channel on the PA - and make adjustments.

[Lozz196]

Keep the good sound but when you get to wherever you’re playing add in more highs and some mids - high mids if possible. I’ve found that a slightly abrasive scratchy sound on stage translates really well into the audience.

[Boodang]

Always a difficult one. EQ is probably everything here, and not just yours. When you record, a sound engineer will be looking at the frequency spectrum of every instrument and try to give them space.... so the left hand of the keyboard isn't obscuring the bass, or the rhythm and lead guitars have separation etc. This also applies live and something the whole band needs to be conscious of.

As for your sound, very simply, a scooped mid eq can sound nice in isolation but lost in context, whereas a mid heavy tone will stand out but can sound very nasal. Hmm, a dichotomy I hear you say!

But, some things to take into account; bass cabs, unless you have double 18 bass bins, are not very efficient at 41hz (typical specs would be -10db at 80hz which basically means your cab doesn't really work very well below that), so boosting that low can end up in an unfocused sound. 80hz will work better but can be boomy. Differentiat between low, mid and high, mid frequencies. Rather than treat mids as a general l block, try cutting at 400 and boosting at 800. Focus in on specific mid frequencies between 200 and 1k to see what affects that makes... both in cut and boost. 

Passive pickups? If so there's not a lot going on above 4k. 2.5 - 3.6k has a nice presence lift, but boosting above that will just increase background noise. 

Basically you're going to have to get quite surgical with your eq.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Boodang

[funkydoug]

For what it is worth, try leaving the multi fx at home for a few gigs while you try to get a sound you’re happy with just with a bass, amp and any Eq pedal or preamp you might be using. In this part of the process I’d avoid anything with menus and presets and try to get your core sound sorted and understand how to adapt that core sound to different settings with Eq, then add effects once you’re happy. 
 

[chris_b]

3 minutes ago, funkydoug said:

For what it is worth, try leaving the multi fx at home for a few gigs . . . .

 

This.

 

If you can't get a good sound out of a bass, amp and cab then effects won't do the job for you.

[MichaelDean]

When I got my GX-100, I similarly set up patches that sounded great in isolation through headphones but turned to mush with the band. Shortly after, we happened to have a couple of practices called off where it was too late to cancel the room, so I spent some time dialing it in with my rig at gig volume. That really helped. I ended up with a LOT more high end content in my signal than I had expected, but it really works in context. If you can, I'd really recommend taking that approach while also keeping in mind the available sonic space.

[Phil Starr]

All of the above, plus a bit more.

 

When you turn the volume up our hearing changes the way we hear different frequencies boosting our perception of bass (and also the extreme highs which aren't relevant to bass) so to keep the same sound you need to roll bass off when the volume goes up.

 

Being close to most bass speakers means you get less of the midrange than the audience as the mids and highs are directional. If you go out front you might be pleasantly surprised at what the audience are hearing. Tilting your speaker and pointing it at your head will help as will raising your speaker to head height. If you can then push the bass out through the PA and just use mid heavy on-stage monitoring for yourself.

 

In terms of sitting in the mix and occupying the 'correct' bit of your sonic space have a listen to some of the isolated bass tracks in You Tube. It's quite a shock to hear how tinny some recorded bass can be yet still sound good in the final mix.

 

And don't worry, we've all found this out the hard way  and welcome to Bass Chat

Edited May 25, 2023 by Phil Starr

[skidder652003]

All good advice.

Boost your mids and cut a little low end just for starters. See if that helps cut through.

Edited May 25, 2023 by skidder652003

[Downunderwonder]

Beware bedroom tone. All too easy to have rubbish band tone. What sounds best with band can sound brash and in your face at home.

 

I sometimes go from jazz rehearsal to rock band and then back next week. The jazz rehearsal space is heavenly bass resonant so I have to gut the bass to not be overbearing.

 

Then of course it is very thin and I find a bit more mids required for a bit of bite to rock out. Back to jazz and it's wtf is that racket? retune time.

 

Crazy thing is my rock tone isn't actually all that different to my jazz tone as it sits within the band continuum.

[gary mac]

13 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

Keep the good sound but when you get to wherever you’re playing add in more highs and some mids - high mids if possible. I’ve found that a slightly abrasive scratchy sound on stage translates really well into the audience.

Exactly what I do in the majority of pub venues.

[fretmeister]

Fletcher-Munson means that there really is no alternative to rehearsing or at least tone setting at performance volume.

 

Even doing it just once so you learn the device at proper volume will give you far more knowledge than you have now.

For the sake of £50 notes for a couple of hours in a rehearsal studio your sound will be massively improved.

 

https://www.first.edu/blog/fletcher-munson-curves-explained/

 

[fretmeister]

Oh - when you've done a performance volume practice save the patch.

 

Then at each venue when you have tweaked it a little for that room, save that patch again as a separate patch for that venue. Then for any places you get repeat bookings you can call up the patch that works at that venue.

 

Large touring bands have been doing this for years - often with a little black book so they can recreate the settings from last time. But modern PA desks / modellers etc can all save hundreds of patches and settings so they now do it that way.

 

It makes soundchecking much easier and consistent.

 

But you will have to do a full volume rehearsal to get going. Even that won't be perfect because a hundred walking bags of meat and water will really change the sound of a room, but you have to have that proper starting point.

[jimfist]

20 hours ago, MikeStockport said:

I play in a covers band that does gigs in the Greater Manchester area. One issue that's puzzling me a bit at the moment is that, using one or other of my multi-effects pedals (I have a Zoom MS60B and a Mooer Prime P1), I can get a sound that sounds great when I listen to it in isolation at home, but when we're gigging in a pub and there are drums and lead guitar and keyboards playing at the same time, the "great sound" gets lost and I either get an indistinct bassy noise or a sound that doesn't sound bassy enough and doesn't drive the sound of the band. Fiddling with effects and/or EQ while playing isn't very easy. Does anyone have any tips or tricks to defining a sound that sounds just as good in a live setting as in a rehearsal? (We don't rehearse at gig volume, by the way - if that's the only answer then it's not all that helpful.)

What does your live rig consist of? What types of sounds/effects are you using in your multi-fx? Also, the amount of headroom your stage rig has will play a part in this, so can your stage rig otherwise keep up with the band, volume-wise?

I agree with the idea of leaving the multi-fx out of the signal path for a go-around next gig/rehearsal. If you can get a good ballpark tone without the extra stuff, then that's a lot of the battle. If not, you've got other problems.

Once you've established this, you can then start to methodically, one-by-one, introduce individual effects from the multi-fx. In fact, just adding a multi-fx totally bypassed has been known to suck tone.

 

[BigRedX]

Time for a technical rehearsal IMO.

 

This is where the band concentrate on getting the sounds rather than the notes right. You'll probably find that whole band will benefit from this.

[Muzz]

19 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

Keep the good sound but when you get to wherever you’re playing add in more highs and some mids - high mids if possible. I’ve found that a slightly abrasive scratchy sound on stage translates really well into the audience.

Nail -> Head here from Lozz...if you need any convincing, then have a listen to some isolated bass tracks (a delve on YouTube will locate some) of famous bassists, and their isolated sound is always somewhat harsher (genre dependent, obv) than it sounds when the whole band's in...Mids are your friend...as is judicious use of compression...but that's whoooole other box of frogs...

 

Way before I moved to digital pedals (I had a MS60B, now I have a Stomp) and was just using an amp, I had a Schroeder cab that was the smallest 2 x 15 in Christendom, and as such sounded harsh and honky and boxy when played in isolation...but with the band, it just worked...

[JPJ]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Time for a technical rehearsal IMO.

 

This is where the band concentrate on getting the sounds rather than the notes right. You'll probably find that whole band will benefit from this.

Huge +1 on this. We did this recently with one of my bands and both our “on stage” and FOH sound benefitted massively. 

[Boodang]

Going back to basics and ditching multi fx's for a while is good advice. But as well as experimenting with eq, I would definitely throw compression in the mix. 

Our new bass player (I play drums in this band) has just bought one of the new Steinberger's, it's got a very mid heavy sound. I've added a bit more mid boost at 800, and some presence at 3.6k, a tad reduction in the bass around 80hz, and really sits well in the mix. To help this I added a tc electronic Spectracomp with the 3 band toneprint and it really adds some punch and drives the band. I highly recommend the Spectracomp, cheap and has some great toneprints so all the hard work is done for you.

So good I'm thinking of buying one of the new steinbergers for myself. 

[CliveT]

I learnt from experience too that you can't dial in your sound at bedroom volume.  So, when I set up at the gig I set all my EQ flat and turn up the volume to roughly the volume I'll need for the gig.  Then you can hear the difference the room is making and adjust accordingly.  Amazing how little I tend to wonder from that 'flat' tone.

I prefer playing with an amp but if it's just in-ears then of course all that stress is taken away and the FOH has control.  

[chris_b]

If you want to get a great live sound with the least effort, buy good gear, especially properly designed cabs.

[Boodang]

On 24/05/2023 at 20:29, MikeStockport said:

I play in a covers band that does gigs in the Greater Manchester area. One issue that's puzzling me a bit at the moment is that, using one or other of my multi-effects pedals (I have a Zoom MS60B and a Mooer Prime P1), I can get a sound that sounds great when I listen to it in isolation at home, but when we're gigging in a pub and there are drums and lead guitar and keyboards playing at the same time, the "great sound" gets lost and I either get an indistinct bassy noise or a sound that doesn't sound bassy enough and doesn't drive the sound of the band. Fiddling with effects and/or EQ while playing isn't very easy. Does anyone have any tips or tricks to defining a sound that sounds just as good in a live setting as in a rehearsal? (We don't rehearse at gig volume, by the way - if that's the only answer then it's not all that helpful.)

You mention what effect’s pedals you’re using, but out of interest what amp / cab setup do you have? And for that matter, what bass are you using?

[uk_lefty]

Not to detract from anything already said, some excellent advice all around. I'd be wary of the multi fx. "Most" multi fx preset patch sounds are EQ based so changing through these in a set can send your EQ all over even if you're just going from patches called "driven SVT" to "Beetle Bass". Learn what works with just the amp EQ, start with everything "flat" then tweak to get it right in band context. Even if it sounds rub ISH at home, so what, sounding good with a band is an underrated skill.

[fretmeister]

Very true.

 

My home bass sound is vastly different to my live sounds - no matter what the genre.

If I use my live sounds at home at modest volumes they sound a bit nasal and farty. When live, they sound ace. (Well, I think so anyway!)

 

I reckon a brilliant example of this is John Deacon with the Queen Live at Wembley recording. When Sir Brian's guitar drops out sometimes the bass is surprisingly farty but all together it sounds massive. Just a P bass, flats, and at that stage of his career, almost always with a plectrum.

[BigRedX]

17 hours ago, uk_lefty said:

Not to detract from anything already said, some excellent advice all around. I'd be wary of the multi fx. "Most" multi fx preset patch sounds are EQ based so changing through these in a set can send your EQ all over even if you're just going from patches called "driven SVT" to "Beetle Bass". Learn what works with just the amp EQ, start with everything "flat" then tweak to get it right in band context. Even if it sounds rub ISH at home, so what, sounding good with a band is an underrated skill.

 

IME 99% of the factory presets are useless for any real-world band situation and at best simply starting points for a sound that actually works with the rest of your gear and the overall sound of your band.

 

When I get a new multi-effects unit the first thing I do is to wipe the first patch location and load it up with my default effects selection - usually EQ, drive, chorus and delay. I'll adjust each of those until I have sound I like, and then take the device to the next rehearsal where the sounds are further adjusted to suit the general band mix. This is then my "default" patch for that particular band and all other sounds that I need will use this patch as a starting point. All final adjustments are made when we are rehearsing the songs when they can be appreciated within the overall band sound. This is why technical rehearsals are important if your sound is any more complicated than simply plugging your instruments into you amps.

[Rob Bisby]

In my opinion any sound you make at home that sounds great to you isn't gunna be as good in a band, best thing to do is make some tweeks when your at band practice. Cuting some high end can help aswell as fiddling about with mids. Try between 500hz and 1k