Fnar Fnar ...

[SamIAm]

OK, so FRFR.

 

I've a pedalboard based on a MOD Dwarf, which has numerous amp/speaker sims/IRs.

 

My understanding (Which is very limited!) is that in general cabs/amp will add a colour/tone to signals.

 

Am I correct in thinking that an FRFR cab/speaker might  be best suited, giving a flat response and letting me tweak the sound from the f/x device?

 

Does anyone know of  battery powered device in this space?

 

S'manth x

[JapanAxe]

If you're engaging amp and speaker sims in the Dwarf then as you say you'll probably be best going into a PA system, FRFR speaker, or at least a very clean and 'flat' bass amp setup.

[JapanAxe]

Meant to say - I have seen battery-powered standalone speakers, but only at the cheaper karaoke/solo-entertainer end of the market.

[pete.young]

There are also some portable column PA systems which are battery powered - depends how loud you want to be and how much battery life. Here's a cheap example:

 

https://www.studiospares.com/proel-session1free-compact-column-system-477500.htm?gclid=CjwKCAjwpuajBhBpEiwA_ZtfhZqdalCfDmuR4jzcbq0tFu9ATqrS3mn-0b-iNvuMGzx8Go9ujOa_YRoCzscQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Woodinblack]

Depends on your volume requirements - for lowish volumes, yes, for rock band volumes, no. But don't you already have a battery combo?

I had a gear4music battery powered PA, probably ok for the singer/songwriter level, but not much good for anything else, and I have a Bose S1, which is pretty good at what it does but again, there is a limit to volume.

 

[Kiwi]

16 hours ago, Smanth said:

My understanding (Which is very limited!) is that in general cabs/amp will add a colour/tone to signals.

Yes, they act like a filter in dampening certain frequencies and allowing others to go through with less dampening. 

[SamIAm]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Depends on your volume requirements - for lowish volumes, yes, for rock band volumes, no. But don't you already have a battery combo?

I had a gear4music battery powered PA, probably ok for the singer/songwriter level, but not much good for anything else, and I have a Bose S1, which is pretty good at what it does but again, there is a limit to volume.

 

I do indeed, a BOSS DUAL CUBE BASS LX.

It is a twin 5 inch with 2x5watt output.  I do run it with the super flat mode selected, but am still not sure how close this comes to FRFR.

Something that was really FRFR with a bit more umph (30w into 1x10 perhaps) woulld be nice.  I might look at building one of the BC cabs but not sure how I would amp it up ... but for me I fear "Here there be monsters" lol

[BigRedX]

Probably time to start working your way through the numerous FRFR threads.

 

But before that, ask yourself "what do you need your amplification for?"

 

Having had some sort of backline for everything except when I was playing synths in an electronic band in the 80s, I went the Helix and FRFR route a about 5 years ago. Since then the FRFR part of my rig has been getting less and less use. In one band we have ditched personal on-stage amps completely and everything goes straight into the PA - easy when you instrumentation is Synthesisers, Drum Machine Bass VI and Vocals. Since the stage is now silent apart from vocals even when the foldback is less than brilliant we can still hear ourselves well enough to play from the FoH. For the other more conventional line-up band the FRFR is only used for rehearsals, and on-stage monitoring at gigs where the quality of the foldback is not particularly good. Then it is usually placed firing sideways across the stage for me and the rest of the band to hear, and the audience gets the bass sound from the PA. For the bigger gigs I don't even bother bringing it as the on-stage monitors will probably be even better than my RFC745.

 

Since I stopped using a "conventional" rig I only had to do two gigs where the FRFR was needed to supply bass guitar FoH because the PA was strictly vocals only, and on both occasions due to its superior dispersion characteristics, I was able to be only slightly louder on stage than I would normally, as opposed to so loud I could barely hear the rest of the band in order to be loud enough out front.

 

For home use I have decent set of headphones or my "studio monitors". TBH unless I'm actual working on sounds for the bands I usually practice acoustically at home.

 

So what I am saying is that if you are using your MOD Dwarf for your "sound" then you are best off with amplification that imposes the least amount of additional colour to this, but depending on whether you gig, and if so what kind of gigs you do, you may not need any kind of personal amplification at all.

[Woodinblack]

45 minutes ago, Smanth said:

I do indeed, a BOSS DUAL CUBE BASS LX.

It is a twin 5 inch with 2x5watt output.  I do run it with the super flat mode selected, but am still not sure how close this comes to FRFR.

 

All these things are compromises. Obviously 2 5" speakers aren't going to get you that flat a response, i mean you know full well, *nothing* will actually give you a flat response / full range, it is just a compromise of how close to a flat response you want to go for what size and what cost. The Bose has a nice range and response, and a great battery life, but not so loud and stupidly expensive (does go nicely with the dwarf though), the gear4music one was actually pretty good considering it was reasonably cheap (b stock), and reasonably light for a tower, it would have been good enough for playing without a drum kit.

 

45 minutes ago, Smanth said:

Something that was really FRFR with a bit more umph (30w into 1x10 perhaps) woulld be nice.  I might look at building one of the BC cabs but not sure how I would amp it up ... but for me I fear "Here there be monsters" lol

 

well, 30W-50 amp modules are common and cheap, as well as small enough to put in a cab, and as all you need from a preamp is to be flat, any sort of hifi preamp module would do.

[lemmywinks]

Interesting project here, you're quite handy at making stuff IIRC?

 

[Mottlefeeder]

I started that project with a cheap class D module, and ended up buying a car audio amplifier instead.

There are some nice one-chip amps out there, but the marketplaces are full of cheap, badly designed Chinese modules using them, and that overwhelms Google's search engine.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were pcbs for diy amps using those chips, but I don't know how to find them.

Anyone have any ideas?

David

[Phil Starr]

Hi Smanth.

 

this looks like two questions to me. How do I get a good sound out of a battery powered amp? How do I make best use of the amp sims on my pedal board?

 

Getting the sound out of your pedal board through your Boss Dual Cube is going to be quite compromised. It won't be as flat as a PA speaker but it is hard to think of something commercially available that is battery powered that will. Power is an issue with just 12V to play with a conventional amplifier will only really give 5W, it is possible to bridge the amps (basically using two amps in a push/pull arrangement) to get 20W and there are amps out there that will give you 4x20W commonly used in car stereos. Beyond this you can use switch mode/digital electronics to turn 12V into a higher voltage to give more power. The cheapest way to do this is a car amplifier module as David has suggested. It was what he had in his combo at the SW Bass Bash. It did sound good.

 

Using amp sims means using a flat response speaker to get the best out of them. Typically the sim just mimics the frequency response of the original system so adding a few db  of variation from a non flat amp just undoes some of the good work. However don't let the search for perfection be the enemy of the good. Using a non flat bass amp with a sim might mean it doesn't sound exactly like an A****g but if it sounds amazing who cares

 

You talked about the Bass Chat designs Two of them look good and would be great driven by your pedals and David's car amp. The House Jam combo https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/455858-house-jam-micro-cab/ which I designed with the 6" speaker is what I use for portable work with a Warwick Gnome, It's the size but not the shape of a large hand bag. The response is flat from 80Hz-8,000Hz which covers most of a bass guitar but with a bit of bass missing as you'd expect from a tiny speaker. This is it, recorded on a phone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_J8r5QAu3g

 

The other build option would be the 10" lockdown build that Stevie designed. https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/445743-basschat-easy-build-lockdown-cab-project/ It's a lot bigger but still an easy one handed carry. The response is a lot flatter than many so called FRFR bass speakers and it's the speaker I use most of all. Both of these would work really well with a 100W car audio amp running off a 12V battery

 

Hope that helps

[nekomatic]

On 02/06/2023 at 21:11, Mottlefeeder said:

There are some nice one-chip amps out there, but the marketplaces are full of cheap, badly designed Chinese modules using them, and that overwhelms Google's search engine.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were pcbs for diy amps using those chips, but I don't know how to find them.

Anyone have any ideas?

The hi-fi community have decided that minimalist amps using these ICs are called ‘Gainclones’, so if you search for ‘gainclone pcb’ you’ll find some. How to judge which ones are well designed though…

[Mottlefeeder]

7 hours ago, nekomatic said:

The hi-fi community have decided that minimalist amps using these ICs are called ‘Gainclones’, so if you search for ‘gainclone pcb’ you’ll find some. How to judge which ones are well designed though…

Thanks for that - I had forgotten about gainclones as a search term, and it does bring up pcbs for through-hole components. I'll have a read and see what sort of bridged power you could get from about 20v of lithium power-pack, or a pair of lead acid batteries.

David

[Mottlefeeder]

On 04/06/2023 at 10:09, nekomatic said:

The hi-fi community have decided that minimalist amps using these ICs are called ‘Gainclones’, so if you search for ‘gainclone pcb’ you’ll find some. How to judge which ones are well designed though…

I've done a quick check, and all I can find under 'gainclone' is class AB. For battery use, class D would be a better option - if they exist at kit level.

 

Thanks for contributing.

 

David

[Chienmortbb]

25 minutes ago, Mottlefeeder said:

I've done a quick check, and all I can find under 'gainclone' is class AB. For battery use, class D would be a better option - if they exist at kit level.

 

Thanks for contributing.

 

David

Gain clones are usually class AB either with bipolar or FET output stages. All need +/- supplies. 
 

If all you have is 12V then you need a module with a single supply rail. There are compromises. You can have Cheap or Quality but you can’t have both. Sadly where the cheap ones fall down is in the bass. 

[SamIAm]

I've done some digging and wonder if any of these might be suitable, they all seem to be able to be powered from 12v and have a suitable frequency range.

 

Cebek 20W Mono "Roadpower" Amplifier https://esr.co.uk/cebek/e-11.htm

Cebek 2-Channel 20W Amplifier https://esr.co.uk/cebek/e-14.htm

Cebek 30W Mono "Roadpower" Amplifier https://esr.co.uk/cebek/e-12.htm

 

S'manth x

[tauzero]

The first one looks like the most likely candidate - the second one presumably has some sort of crossover, the third one is aimed at truckers with an available 24V (although using a USB-C controller to give you 20V would probably work). Input sensitivity is about the right level to run off an instrument or effects pedal.

[Chienmortbb]

2 hours ago, tauzero said:

The first one looks like the most likely candidate - the second one presumably has some sort of crossover, the third one is aimed at truckers with an available 24V (although using a USB-C controller to give you 20V would probably work). Input sensitivity is about the right level to run off an instrument or effects pedal.

That looks good. https://cebek.co.uk/media/ecom/prodpdf/cebek-e-11-user-manual.pdf However the amp looks like a Class A/B, and it will be fairly inefficient.

Edited June 8, 2023 by Chienmortbb

[sandy_r]

[not needed on journey]

 

Edited February 21 by sandy_r

[Chienmortbb]

On 02/06/2023 at 11:46, Smanth said:

I do indeed, a BOSS DUAL CUBE BASS LX.

It is a twin 5 inch with 2x5watt output.  I do run it with the super flat mode selected, but am still not sure how close this comes to FRFR.

Something that was really FRFR with a bit more umph (30w into 1x10 perhaps) woulld be nice.  I might look at building one of the BC cabs but not sure how I would amp it up ... but for me I fear "Here there be monsters" lol

Don’t worry too much about the amp if you build one of the smaller BC variants. Your preamp is in the Dwarf so you just need a power amp. Also do not worry about the power. Choose an efficient driver and use an HPF ( you can probably do that in your setup already). Do not worry about the extreme low end.  
 

Battery power is a limitation but you can get inverters that double or treble the voltage. I have designed a PA for my local football club the uses a 12V leisure battery ( it’s a car battery but designed for continuous use rather than the peak use starting a car). By using a 12-36v inverter I can drive 2 x 100W amps that will operate in an emergency even if the mains fails. 

 

So decide how much acoustic power you need then you can work out roughly what driver/amp/battery-inverter you need. There are car amplifiers that include the inverters, I believe @Mottlefeederhas done a lot of research and amassed a lot of knowledge in that area.

 

Regarding your Roland amp, the 5” speakers may well give a good output at higher frequencies, many 5” speakers approach full range. However the response may be tailored by Roland for a certain response.