Bass + guitar speakers

[nige1968]

Bi-amping question for those that know about speakers.

 

Bass guitar (lowest string tuned to E, 41.2hz) -> splitter --> separate amps:

• Guitar amp (40w combo with 1x12). High pass filter at 82.4Hz.
• Bass amp (200w combo with 1x15). High pass filter at 41.2Hz.

I would like to crank the guitar amp. Should I? If not, is there a solution using the HPF?

 

Thank you.

Edited June 5, 2023 by nige1968
Befuddlement

[BigRedX]

Very few cabs will reproduce the fundamental of low E on a bass, you are mostly hearing the harmonics and your brain fills in the gaps.

 

I also assume that you have got your high pass filters the wrong way round the guitar amp signal should be filtering more low frequencies? Also most guitar combos are open backed and therefore the speakers are not at all happy about lots of low frequency content at any significant volume.

 

What are you hoping to achieve with your bi-amping? 

 

I ran a bi-amp system very successfully for most of the 90s, but it was done using a proper crossover that sent just the low-frequency component to the "bass" speaker and high frequencies only to a 2 x 8 cab I made based on the specifications of my favourite guitar combo of the time. I can't remember the actual crossover frequency I used, but I'm pretty sure it was a lot higher than 82.4 Hz. This was used mainly so I could stick serious amounts of chorus, flanger and delay on the high frequency side without loosing any bottom end. It was IMO less successful with anything but the most subtle of distortions since the differing envelopes of the distorted and non-distorted parts didn't sit right to my ears, even with additional compression on the low frequencies. I was happier sticking the distortion before the crossover and then using an additional EQ on the low frequency side to maintain the bass feel.

[nige1968]

Thanks for this. I'm guessing with the high pass settings really, so could use some knowledgeable advice. Doesn't help that I somehow transposed the frequencies, thanks for pointing that out.

 

I'm a one-man band atm and trying to cut any damaging frequencies out of the "guitar" portion of the set-up. So the low end goes to the bass amp and the higher frequencies to the guitar amp. Sounds lovely at low volume, I'm just not clear whether I can use filtering or crossover (same thing in a different wrapper?) to safeguard the guitar amp speaker at higher levels, and if so what settings to use. 

 

Obviously I could run the amp to an external bass cab but I'm probably going to lose the guitary top end, or at least adversely colour it.

[itu]

As Big Red Cross stated, you should try a X-over. Put the frequency somewhere around 400 Hz and start experimenting. There's no reason to mix amps' outputs, as then you just fall to a rut that includes comb filtering among several other possible issues.

 

I am using an Iron Ether Divaricator. Works like a dream, no need for two amps. The effect loop includes distortion and flanger. I can push them to unreal limits and the bottom stays functional.

[Baloney Balderdash]

3 hours ago, itu said:

As Big Red Cross stated, you should try a X-over. Put the frequency somewhere around 400 Hz and start experimenting. There's no reason to mix amps' outputs, as then you just fall to a rut that includes comb filtering among several other possible issues.

 

I am using an Iron Ether Divaricator. Works like a dream, no need for two amps. The effect loop includes distortion and flanger. I can push them to unreal limits and the bottom stays functional.

Won't give the same effect as running a separate bass and guitar amp with each their own respective speaker cabinet!

 

And this worked/works fine for Chris Squire and Billy Sheehan.

 

And then there is Lou Barlow (from Dinosaur Jr.) who split his signal between 3 amps, without any kind of filters in between, to get a mix of their different characters: an overdriven Marshall JCM800, all tube amp head, for its top end focus/qualities, a clean old SS Peavey bass amp head (forgot the exact model) for its midrange focus/qualities, and an old overdriven Ampeg SVT, all tube amp head, that he drives further with an Exotic BB Bass Preamp in front of it, for its bottom end focus/qualities, and he sounds amazing live.

 

As long as one is aware of these potential issues that you mention and place/adjust the individual cabs/amps accordingly.

 

 

To OP:

 

Yes...

 

A HPF set to somewhere between 80 to 120 Hz or so for the guitar amp, and a HPF set to about 40Hz for the bass amp seems about right.

 

You should be completely safe cranking the guitar amp as long as you are using an effective HPF set to somewhere around 100Hz or so before it.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[itu]

Dear @Baloney Balderdash, but sure, two is always more than one, even from the weight perspective... But even one works better with a X-over. I found that the tiny adjustments earlier could be changed to wandering in the fx forests.

 

I thought that the low part of the response has to be plain bass (except compressing, or envelope filtering). Yes, tried and true. But the big difference was to find that the high end can be mushed and mashed really hard with modulation and distortion fx. Even some pretty lousy distortion pedals started to sound quite decent. They used to kill the low end, but not any more. Please try and amaze yourself.

 

I do admit that too much effects is too much sooner or later, but the possibilities of finding new territories is evident.

Edited June 5, 2023 by itu
lbs.

[Baloney Balderdash]

2 hours ago, itu said:

Dear @Baloney Balderdash, but sure, two is always more than one, even from the weight perspective... But even one works better with a X-over. I found that the tiny adjustments earlier could be changed to wandering in the fx forests.

 

I thought that the low part of the response has to be plain bass (except compressing, or envelope filtering). Yes, tried and true. But the big difference was to find that the high end can be mushed and mashed really hard with modulation and distortion fx. Even some pretty lousy distortion pedals started to sound quite decent. They used to kill the low end, but not any more. Please try and amaze yourself.

 

I do admit that too much effects is too much sooner or later, but the possibilities of finding new territories is evident.

That's not as objective a truth as you try to make it sound like.

 

Personally I don't like a fizzy effected high end floating on top of a clean low end, even if I realize that approach has become quite popular, possibly, as you say, because you get a pretty consistent result, almost regardless of which effects you use, (even if in my opinion seldom a result that actually also sound good).

 

And I assume I am not the only one like that.

 

Also the tone from the guitar amp/cab including the HPF is already going to be brighter with some low end cut, but also, in my experience and opinion, it is going to sound much more complex and blend in better and more naturally with the bass amp signal than a straight simple single point crossover to a single output amp/cab, though definitely will require more overall work and accurate adjustments to work optimally (whether that then is worth it or not I guess would be up to the individual player to decide, and depend on the specific context/application as well as the player in question and their personal preferences/tonal aspirations). 

 

That said I would absolutely advice OP to try out both approaches, if they don't already know what kind of sound they are after more specifically (even if they did specifically mention bi-amping).

 

It is simply not going to be the same sound/result, and one approach, while both having advantages and disadvantages, will not give an objectively better result than the other, but very much depend on the specific context/application and individual personal preferences.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[BigRedX]

Using overlapping HPFs instead of a crossover will be OK so long as your rig is just for on-stage monitoring and the main sound your audience hears is from the PA, but otherwise as itu says you'll run into comb-filtering problems and your carefully crafted sound can be completely ruined for members of the audience stood in the "wrong" place sound-wise (which may well be the "best" place to see the band on stage). 

 

Of course running through the PA brings its own set of problems. You'll be taking up two channels (not so much an issue these days with digital desks, but I've encountered instances in the past where only one channel was reserved for the bass and getting a second one was done only very reluctantly on the part of the PA engineer), and also you'll probably want the guitar amp mic'd up (especially if you intend to drive it hard) rather than DI'd to get the right sound FoH. When you have a set up like this having a band engineer becomes far more important. My band's sound improved massively after we recruited a dedicated engineer, as many in-house engineers simply didn't seem to understand the concept of bi-amping for the bass.

 

Luckily for me, these days I do all of this within my Line6 Helix, and supply the PA with a single DI feed which makes life easier for everyone, plus I don't have 2 heavy cabs plus a rack of amps and effects taking up room in the band van and on-stage. There another band we sometime do gigs with how have a similar set-up to the one being proposed in the OP they always seem to take up an inordinate amount of space on stage with their backline for, as far as I can tell, very little sonic gain.