Playing To A Click

[stewblack]

A new experience coming up for this old dog at the weekend.

Depping for a band whose entire set is pumped into their brains from a backing track, via earphones.

They use a metronome, some chords, and verbal cues throughout the songs. 

I can imagine certain advantages. The tempo, or speed, of each song is set, not dependent upon the vagaries and mood of a drummer. Less chance of getting lost mid song. 

But I wonder how lifeless and robotic the performance might be, how utterly unresponsive to the audience, how entirely lacking in spontaneity. 

However, it's not something I ever propose to inflict on my regular bands, and if it helps me as a dep not to get lost (I don't know many of the tunes) then it's all to the good.

 

[Lozz196]

Given many audiences they`ll probably not even notice. I`ve played along to clicks when recording and find it does tend to reign in my natural tendency to hit harder/faster in certain parts of the songs.

[BigRedX]

Does this band have a drummer?

 

I've been in several bands who using backing and a click, and play in one now, but only the drummer gets the click and the rest of us play to the drummer. The drummer gives it all the push and pull we need, and because the songs are strong there's nothing lifeless or robotic about the performance. Also because the backbone of the arrangement is going to be perfect every time it gives you a bit more wiggle room as a musician and a performer. I don't what sort of spontaneity you are looking for, but I've found the extra tightness that having some parts pre-recorded/programmed time more than makes up for this. 

 

My other current band has drums and some synth on the backing. Songs have been programmed with tempo changes where necessary - most of the time it's a subtle few BPM up and down to keep the correct feel of the different parts of the song. When we finally go onto IEMs we'll be able to loose the count-ins and other audible cues from the FoH which will make the performance from the audience's PoV even better.

[dclaassen]

I personally don't like idea of playing to a metronomic click. Musicians practice to a metronome all the time, but that, IMO, serves a much different purpose than group performance. I really find it hard to listen to a lot of computer-enhanced music, because the beat is so lifeless. Live music is meant to flex with the emotional feedback you get from both it and the audience. I was watching a live Skynard performance the other day, imagining how awful that music would sound if played strictly with a click track. To me, the final evolution of this trend would be no live musicians, just set your laptop up on the stage....it'll be perfect every time. 

[BigRedX]

Some music works with a click. Some doesn't.

 

Good musicians know when, and when not, to use one. There is no single position answer that is correct for every case.

 

A previous band I was in used a click on some tracks when we recorded them. However we tried every song with and without the click first in rehearsal and only used the click in the studio on those songs that benefitted from it. On some we'd program the tempo changes into the click so that they always happened in the right place and by the same amount. Even then only the drummer heard the click. The rest of the band played to the drums. I would defy anyone to listen to the recordings and spot which were done with a click and which were not.

 

Until the OP comes back with more detail about the band and music they are playing, it's all pointless speculation.

[dclaassen]

Challenge accepted....post some examples and find out if we can tell. 

 

In my Master's Degree program, we had a Physics of Sound course taught by a member of the Physics department. He held up two tuning forks (remember those?) ...one at 440 and the other at 442 and stated that "no one can hear the difference between them"....almost all the trained musicians could. 

 

"Good musicians" can hold the beat steady enough to make great music. (they also practice with a metronome, but don't play with one). 

 

BTW, recording is a whole different thing.....

[stewblack]

14 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Until the OP comes back with more detail about the band and music they are playing, it's all pointless speculation.

It's a wedding set. With some medleys. Pretty standard fare but just not all stuff I'm familiar with 

[BigRedX]

Just now, dclaassen said:

Challenge accepted....post some examples and find out if we can tell. 

 

 

Here you go. There's two  3-track EPs at least one song on each was done without a click.

 

RockinRollin' VampireMan EP

 

Invasion of the SpiderQueen

[SamIAm]

1 hour ago, stewblack said:

But I wonder how lifeless and robotic the performance might be, how utterly unresponsive to the audience, how entirely lacking in spontaneity. 

There is a tweak/setting in DAWs that can be used to vary timing a bit to sound more natural, I've seen it called "humanize".

S'manth x

[stewblack]

Just now, Smanth said:

There is a tweak/setting in DAWs that can be used to vary timing a bit to sound more natural, I've seen it called "humanize".

S'manth x

Interesting. I don't know if they employ such tactics or not. 

I was referring more to the way a metronome sucks life from individual playing and how the set structures of the songs can't be varied on the fly to suit the audience.

In other words if they're all up dancing you can't just keep the song rolling. You lose the improvised moments of magic that elevate a performance. 

[BigRedX]

Does the band have a drummer?

[nilorius]

I have the same situation, but they don't bother me, so i don't bother them !

[tauzero]

1 hour ago, stewblack said:

A new experience coming up for this old dog at the weekend.

Depping for a band whose entire set is pumped into their brains from a backing track, via earphones.

They use a metronome, some chords, and verbal cues throughout the songs. 

I can imagine certain advantages. The tempo, or speed, of each song is set, not dependent upon the vagaries and mood of a drummer. Less chance of getting lost mid song. 

But I wonder how lifeless and robotic the performance might be, how utterly unresponsive to the audience, how entirely lacking in spontaneity.

 

Mrs Zero is in a duo with a guitarist using backing tracks, hence playing at set tempo. Their performances aren't lifeless and robotic in the slightest. A lifeless and robotic performance will only be produced by a lifeless and robotic band.

[nilorius]

1 minute ago, tauzero said:

 

Mrs Zero is in a duo with a guitarist using backing tracks, hence playing at set tempo. Their performances aren't lifeless and robotic in the slightest. A lifeless and robotic performance will only be produced by a lifeless and robotic band.

Robots don't care where You have been.

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, stewblack said:

. . . .  I wonder how lifeless and robotic the performance might be, how utterly unresponsive to the audience, how entirely lacking in spontaneity. 

However, it's not something I ever propose to inflict on my regular bands, and if it helps me as a dep not to get lost (I don't know many of the tunes) then it's all to the good.

 

 

If playing to a click is robotic or a problem, then the musician is getting it wrong. Timing isn't about spontaneity, it's about keeping good time so all the musicians are playing together as one.

 

A click is no different to playing with a drummer who has good time. It may or may not be a good thing to let your time drift in and out, but changing time in "response to the audience" is not something you should be doing.

 

Apparently James Jamerson had perfect timing. Good musicians make playing in time sound good, bad musicians make playing in time sound robotic.

[Dood]

1 minute ago, tauzero said:

 

Mrs Zero is in a duo with a guitarist using backing tracks, hence playing at set tempo. Their performances aren't lifeless and robotic in the slightest. A lifeless and robotic performance will only be produced by a lifeless and robotic band.

 

All the criticisms I've ever seen about playing to click tends to come from people who have pre-conceived ideas about what that "does" to a band and usually have no real experience with working with a click professionally.

 

One small example: If a musician in a band (and I haven't singled out drummers here) is 'responsible' for keeping time to a click and wanders back and forth over the tempo, it will make the music sound clunky as all the musicians will wander too a bit like watching cars speed up and slow down in a long line of traffic. 

Sounding lifeless is also the result of not spending time working with the backing tracks and click to get the best out of a performance. So, I agree with you Tauzero - bands can sound incredibly powerful and lively to click.

 

Case in point, my new friend Darby Todd uploaded a video of his paying with Devin Townsend with the click included so you can hear exactly what he is doing. Of course Darby is a top-tier session player who is locked with razor sharp timing - but there is no way that you can say that his performance lacks drive, energy, passion and emotion. 

 

A quick lesson for playing to click - and I'll see if I can find it, is the little viral short of Carol Kaye demonstrating how she sets up her metronome to be the "2" and "4" of 4/4, treating it like a snare drum part, making it feel more natural to vibe over.  Long story short, you can program a click track with different sounds and accents to make it feel more natural and to not get lost in a song structure rather than a mind numbing high pitched click!

 

[BigRedX]

If the band was to stretch the songs out because of a favourable audience reaction then who decides? How is it signalled? how do you know when to bring it all back to a neat and tidy ending? Fine if all the band have played together for ages, but I probably wouldn't want to do it with a dep who has just stepped in for a single gig.

 

Also remember that for every person up on the dance floor there's someone else waiting for the band to "play something good", so playing the song as originally agreed and moving on to the next could be an even better move.

[tauzero]

15 minutes ago, nilorius said:

Robots don't care where You have been.

 

But androids may dream of electric sheep.

[chris_b]

6 minutes ago, Dood said:

Case in point, my new friend Darby Todd uploaded a video of his paying with Devin Townsend with the click included so you can hear exactly what he is doing. Of course Darby is a top-tier session player who is locked with razor sharp timing - but there is no way that you can say that his performance lacks drive, energy, passion and emotion. 

 

Darby used to come to our jam night, about 20 years ago. His style was special, even then.

[Dood]

1 minute ago, BigRedX said:

If the band was to stretch the songs out because of a favourable audience reaction then who decides? How is it signalled? how do you know when to bring it all back to a neat and tidy ending? Fine if all the band have played together for ages, but I probably wouldn't want to do it with a dep who has just stepped in for a single gig.

 

Also remember that for every person up on the dance floor there's someone else waiting for the band to "play something good", so playing the song as originally agreed and moving on to the next could be an even better move.

 

I agree that there is a place for performances like this. In fact, I am currently gigging with a band who have many, many years of experience under their belts and all of the members are reactive and are brilliant at reading the audience. Chopping and changing songs and set, calling out changes on the stage at a moments notice. It's very exciting and it suits the band very well. I love working with them as their communication and connection on stage is like a well oiled wheel!

 

 

[Dood]

Just now, chris_b said:

 

Darby used to come to our jam night, about 20 years ago. His style was special, even then.

 

It made me smile that after coming off the last tour with Devin, a couple of nights later he was playing local pub gigs again.  Legend!

[nilorius]

4 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

 

Also remember that for every person up on the dance floor there's someone else waiting for the band to "play something good", so playing the song as originally agreed and moving on to the next could be an even better move.

I f You choose playing the song as originally and use studio recordings - not right, You can't play 20 times and choose the best version. Always improvisations will happen, also in timing, the drummer, plays with metronome in his ear, just slows the song a bit down at the end. I think it's normal.

[ZilchWoolham]

If you have a rhythm section I don't really see why a click is necessary, but it certainly isn't a problem, either, unless you specifically play songs with tempo changes, either abrupt or gradual. But whether a band gradually drifts from 133 to 136 BPM over the course of three minutes instead of staying at a rock-steady 134 is not something I think anyone would really notice. You're still a band of humans performing, it won't sound lifeless. In fact, I'd argue that even a lot of electronic music doesn't necessarily sound lifeless. As far as audience engagement goes, the most prevalent form of dance music for the past 40 years or so has been fixed to a strict BPM and it hasn't exactly hurt its effectiveness on a dance floor. 

 

It's true I probably wouldn't want to see Fairport playing Sloth to a pre-programmed click track, but for a functions band I think tightness and economy serves you rather well. 

[fretmeister]

1 hour ago, dclaassen said:

I personally don't like idea of playing to a metronomic click. Musicians practice to a metronome all the time, but that, IMO, serves a much different purpose than group performance. I really find it hard to listen to a lot of computer-enhanced music, because the beat is so lifeless. Live music is meant to flex with the emotional feedback you get from both it and the audience. I was watching a live Skynard performance the other day, imagining how awful that music would sound if played strictly with a click track. To me, the final evolution of this trend would be no live musicians, just set your laptop up on the stage....it'll be perfect every time. 

Nah, if I write something with an orchestra or a 10 instrument horn section and I don’t actually have a band with an orchestra in it, then to perform the tune I’m going to need backing tracks and a click.

 

The rest would still be live. 

[Dood]

I also am not against the idea that if a band is playing to a click "track";  think of it rather than a time keeper but a structure chart that will allow automation of other on stage processes.

 

Light rigs can be automated, effects and solo boosts, patch changes or MIDI CC control. Even just switching off vocal effects at the end of the track so the singer can address the audience without sounding like they're under the sea ha ha! 

 

Yes, yes, sure, for those on a budget who don't have redundancy built in, thats leaning towards a single point of failure, but for bigger shows, it's incredible what can be controlled in this way.. which, given the cost in shipping gear on tour, the less kit the better!