Playing To A Click

[BigRedX]

6 minutes ago, Dood said:

Light rigs can be automated, effects and solo boosts, patch changes or MIDI CC control. Even just switching off vocal effects at the end of the track so the singer can address the audience without sounding like they're under the sea ha ha! 

 

I used to do this with my band back in the 90s when it was a lot harder to achieve then it is now.

 

In my current bands all my effects changes are automated in time with the backing. Unsurprisingly my playing and on stage performance is much better if I don't also have to be in the correct place on stage to hit a particular switch at exactly the right moment. This is especially true for the band where I play Bass VI and where on some songs I'm switching between "bass" and "guitar" parts with corresponding sound changes every other bar. I'll be rolling this facility out to the other band members over the next couple of months. The only thing we don't automate is the start of each new song. I do this via a footswitch in conjunction with cues from our singer.

[musicbassman]

Interesting topic.

Did a dep gig last weekend and it was my first experience working with a band just as described by @stewblack  - a click and full backing tracks, verbal cues, the works.

I'm sure the end result was OK out front (they had a regular sound engineer who came to their gigs) but a most peculiar slightly other worldly experience on stage as relying entirely on IEM's and not a lot of eye contact for cues.

This was a pro standard wedding/functions band and this set up was an absolute standard for them - they made it perfectly clear what I could expect when they offered me the gig, and I only got the gig because I took a deep breath and said I'd be happy to work like this 😬

Much to my relief, they seemed pleased enough with the end result 

[spencer.b]

I think click on a gig has it's place , most of the "feel" comes from the subdivisions anyway( some interesting stuff on the spaven mullarkey sbl vid) , those gospel chops drum cam vids when you can hear the click are an example of this,  don't get me wrong there's loads of gigs where I wouldn't want it but the OPs setting of pop medleys seems appropriate to me , I sometimes feel less engaged emotionally playing with click and track on ears but maybe that's fine too and about accuracy and  groove as opposed to vibe and energy 

Edited June 6, 2023 by spencer.b

[spencer.b]

2 minutes ago, spencer.b said:

 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by spencer.b

[asingardenof]

1 hour ago, tauzero said:

 

But androids may dream of electric sheep.

Are "friends" electric though?

[nilorius]

5 minutes ago, asingardenof said:

Are "friends" electric though?

Nope, they are drones.

[No lust in Jazz]

One of my bands uses backing tracks for around 50% of its material. These are usually 'keynote' songs that require certain parts that we otherwise don't have the instrumentation for. This is typically various percussion elements, 2nd Keys or samples; it has to add to the material otherwise there's no point. Sometimes nothing beats five musicians looking at one another for a cue.

 

Balancing the volume of a backing track to the band is a science that we are still learning.

[dclaassen]

First of all..nice job! This is not my normal type of stuff, but you do it really well, and I enjoyed all the tracks....

 

Just my guess....

 

Lilly and the Killers is at 152 all the way...drummer slows just a bit on the bridge, but it stays right there....click track

RRVM--145 all the way...click track

Trance--181ish...probably not a track

 

Spider Queen (great song, btw) is 149 so...click track

Planet....145...click track

Blitz...no click track

 

How did I do?

[JapanAxe]

I believe Stew is referring to a band that I have done some gigs with, and in fact I have 3 wedding engagements with them this summer.

 

To answer some of the questions/comments above:

- Yes they have a drummer.

- There is no option of keeping things going without completely abandoning the click.

- The light show is automatically controlled by DMX form the same program that provides the click.

 

Also each player can control their own mix using the Qu-You app on a phone or tablet.

 

Enjoy the gig @stewblack!

[dclaassen]

2 hours ago, chris_b said:

 

If playing to a click is robotic or a problem, then the musician is getting it wrong. Timing isn't about spontaneity, it's about keeping good time so all the musicians are playing together as one.

 

A click is no different to playing with a drummer who has good time. It may or may not be a good thing to let your time drift in and out, but changing time in "response to the audience" is not something you should be doing.

 

Apparently James Jamerson had perfect timing. Good musicians make playing in time sound good, bad musicians make playing in time sound robotic.

I think pre and post-digital musicians just have different views on this. Younger musicians are used to hearing music with metronomic rhythm. To me, it sounds mostly artificial. I'll bet any pre-digital recording varies tempo, at least a bit. And that is not a sign of bad musicianship. Classically trained musicians very tempo without intending to....it's a human thing. 

[chris_b]

15 minutes ago, dclaassen said:

I think pre and post-digital musicians just have different views on this. Younger musicians are used to hearing music with metronomic rhythm. To me, it sounds mostly artificial. I'll bet any pre-digital recording varies tempo, at least a bit. And that is not a sign of bad musicianship. . . .

 

I agree.

 

The natural sway of the tempo doesn't have to be a bad thing, but the OP is about  a click being a negative thing. I don't think that's true.

[WinterMute]

I've done many sessions with click tracks of all kinds, metronomes, loops, once the original song as a guide, and they all have advantages and disadvantages.

 

I've come to believe that clicks of any kind limit the drummers to an extent, they constrain the performance, even if slightly. Even the best session players play better if allowed to keep their own time, to my ears.

 

I started using groove extraction in Protools a while back, it allows me to lock the timeline of the session to the timekeeping of the drummer, allows them to set the tempo and dynamics and lets me keep programmed parts and loops in time perfectly. Obviously it only works in the studio and if you have a drummer capable of keeping good time, which isn't always the case...!

 

Can't be done for live work, but a bit of time in rehearsal can set up a very similar "dynamic" click that can be used as the basis for a much more natural feel to programme-based tracks.

[BigRedX]

26 minutes ago, dclaassen said:

How did I do?

 

Spot on although given that you included tempos I suspect you stuck the tracks in a DAW to see how well they lined up start to finish with a fixed tempo grid (that's what I would have done!)

 

StickyPants speeds up slightly all the way through and there is no way that it could have been done with a click. We did look at a variable tempo click for DoodleBug Blitz, but the amount of changes made it impractical and it never felt quite right. 

 

However if you weren't specifically listening for it I doubt anyone would have spotted which were done with and without. We were helped by having a super-tight drummer (his other band was live drum and bass) who would often make us rehearse at 3/4 tempo to tighten up our playing as a band.

[stewblack]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Does the band have a drummer?

No idea

[stewblack]

35 minutes ago, JapanAxe said:

I believe Stew is referring to a band that I have done some gigs with, and in fact I have 3 wedding engagements with them this summer.

 

To answer some of the questions/comments above:

- Yes they have a drummer.

- There is no option of keeping things going without completely abandoning the click.

- The light show is automatically controlled by DMX form the same program that provides the click.

 

Also each player can control their own mix using the Qu-You app on a phone or tablet.

 

Enjoy the gig @stewblack!

Cool, thanks man. I'm absolutely fine working with the click tracks provided as I believe it will be helpful to me depping as I am at short notice. I simply thought it might provide interesting meat for a BC discussion.

[BigRedX]

31 minutes ago, dclaassen said:

I think pre and post-digital musicians just have different views on this. Younger musicians are used to hearing music with metronomic rhythm. To me, it sounds mostly artificial. I'll bet any pre-digital recording varies tempo, at least a bit. And that is not a sign of bad musicianship. Classically trained musicians very tempo without intending to....it's a human thing. 

 

I think it's probably got more to do with what genres of music you listen to and play. I've spent most of my playing "career" in bands with some sort of click or backing track since 1981 - I'm now in my 60s so I doubt I count as a "younger" musician. 

[stewblack]

13 minutes ago, chris_b said:

 

I agree.

 

The natural sway of the tempo doesn't have to be a bad thing, but the OP is about  a click being a negative thing. I don't think that's true.

Sorry I gave that impression. I actually posted positives as well as negatives and merely wanted to start a conversation on the subject.

[BigRedX]

38 minutes ago, JapanAxe said:

I believe Stew is referring to a band that I have done some gigs with, and in fact I have 3 wedding engagements with them this summer.

 

To answer some of the questions/comments above:

- Yes they have a drummer.

- There is no option of keeping things going without completely abandoning the click.

- The light show is automatically controlled by DMX form the same program that provides the click.

 

Also each player can control their own mix using the Qu-You app on a phone or tablet.

 

Enjoy the gig @stewblack!

 

To the OP, you'll hopefully get a bit of time in the soundcheck to work out an IEM that is comfortable for you, but unless you need the click for the count-ins or to keep time in sections where there are no live drums (personally if I had created the backing I'd have these elements separate to the main "metronomic" click), I'd keep it low in the mix and work off the live drums instead.

[MacDaddy]

No mention yet of beat synching? Such as setting delay repeats to the beat etc.

[BigRedX]

42 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

No mention yet of beat synching? Such as setting delay repeats to the beat etc.

 

If you're using a computer to play back your backing then you can use MIDI sync which is what I do. Allows a lot more besides.

[JapanAxe]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

To the OP, you'll hopefully get a bit of time in the soundcheck to work out an IEM that is comfortable for you, but unless you need the click for the count-ins or to keep time in sections where there are no live drums (personally if I had created the backing I'd have these elements separate to the main "metronomic" click), I'd keep it low in the mix and work off the live drums instead.

I keep it quite low, just high enough that I can hear the cues e.g. 'chorus-2-3-4'.

[Waddo Soqable]

I remember once we did something with a click track, this was also with a real drummer, when we listened back to it we were all spot on together with each other no prob...just that by the end the click track was miles out with the rest of us.. 🤣

[MacDaddy]

13 minutes ago, Waddo Soqable said:

I remember once we did something with a click track, this was also with a real drummer, when we listened back to it we were all spot on together with each other no prob...just that by the end the click track was miles out with the rest of us.. 🤣

 

The tape with the click track probably stretched 😉

[Waddo Soqable]

3 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

 

The tape with the click track probably stretched 😉

Must have.. Absolutely ! 😁

[dclaassen]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

Spot on although given that you included tempos I suspect you stuck the tracks in a DAW to see how well they lined up start to finish with a fixed tempo grid (that's what I would have done!)

 

StickyPants speeds up slightly all the way through and there is no way that it could have been done with a click. We did look at a variable tempo click for DoodleBug Blitz, but the amount of changes made it impractical and it never felt quite right. 

 

However if you weren't specifically listening for it I doubt anyone would have spotted which were done with and without. We were helped by having a super-tight drummer (his other band was live drum and bass) who would often make us rehearse at 3/4 tempo to tighten up our playing as a band.

You do have a great, tight sound. I checked beginning and ending tempos with a metronome then listened for variance….old school.