When to get a second cab?

[asingardenof]

OK, time to attempt to ask the question that's been rattling around in my brain for a little while - when is one cab not enough? Specifically, I have an Ashdown ABM600 and a Barefaced Two10S. This will likely do for most of the gigs I'll play, as they're mostly in pubs, working men's clubs, sports clubs, etc. but there's a nagging thought that says "you might need another one if you play anywhere bigger". Is that thought correct? Chances are at larger venues I'll be able to DI into the in-house PA so will only need to worry about hearing myself on stage, but at what point does doubling up on cabs become a necessity, and should I rely on venue PA being good enough? I'm conscious that my amp is realistically 500W @ 4 ohms into the Barefaced, but if I double up it'll only be c.450W @ 6 ohms with 2 x 12 ohm cabs. So less power but more speaker area - does that equal louder, better dispersion, people at the back being able to hear, or does it just equate to a waste of several hundred pounds for no benefit? If it were to become a necessity would I need to get a more powerful amp able get the full power from the speakers?

 

Apologies for the lack of technical terms and vague ramblings, I'm just not quite sure how to express what I'm asking.

[chris_b]

12 minutes ago, asingardenof said:

. . . .  more speaker area - does that equal louder, better dispersion, people at the back being able to hear. . . .

 

More speakers equals all of those things, plus better tone.

 

I used both cabs at the weekend when 1 would have covered  the gig. With no extra volume, the top cab made it easier for me to hear myself and the better tone from moving more air made 2 cabs a good move.

[Downunderwonder]

11 minutes ago, asingardenof said:

should I rely on venue PA being good enough?

That's the 64000 dollar question. Should you? I vote speak softly but carry the big stick.

 

The only necessity is to be able to keep up with your drummer. Then a vocal PA has to keep up with you, or you have to dial it back.

 

It sounds like the main use you would get from a second cab is outdoors.

 

A vertical stack is very nice for monitoring too.

 

Mind out you don't inspire an arms race with your skinny stringers.

[asingardenof]

Just now, Downunderwonder said:

The only necessity is to be able to keep up with your drummer. Then a vocal PA has to keep up with you, or you have to dial it back.

So far this hasn't been an issue, and the only time I've had to DI is when my amp blew.

 

1 minute ago, Downunderwonder said:

It sounds like the main use you would get from a second cab is outdoors.

That's what I'm thinking. We're playing at a small festival in October and at the moment I'm looking to DI, but as it's a VW camper festival and not a music festival I'm wondering if relying on the PA would be advisable. A pic from last year's event:

 

4 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Mind out you don't inspire an arms race with your skinny stringers.

While she's a personal trainer she is quite short so I reckon I could take her. Our synth player is quite wiry and smokes like a chimney so no worries there either 🤣

[Lozz196]

I think if all of the other instruments are going through the PA then one cab and DI, if it`s (intended) only vocals and a kick-drum presence in the PA then another cab as well for a greater depth of sound.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Lozz196

[BassAdder60]

I gigged my ABM600 through two ABM210H cabs for an outside gig and with some going through our vocals PA ( we have subs too ) it was plenty loud enough.

 

Its a balance of normal gigs to “ one offs”  and carrying or storing a second cab.

 

I now use Ampeg SVT212AV and SVT112AV cabs together with my TH700 and it’s the same rig for small or large venues with the only difference is some in the PA for outside stuff. Large indoors it’s all from my backline 

[asingardenof]

20 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I think if all of the other instruments are going through the PA then one cab and DI, if it`s (intended) only vocals and a kick-drum presence in the PA then another cab as well for a greater depth of sound.

Usually it's vocals (x2) and synth through the PA, the guitarist and I use cabs. For a larger gig it may well be all of us bar the drums going through the PA.

[gjones]

You only need to be as loud as the drummer at any venue that doesn't have front of house PA. At your next gig/rehearsal, get you drummer to play as loud as they can and if you can still hear yourself then you'll be fine. Any venue that has a front of house PA will put drums and bass through it. 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by gjones

[Muzz]

This ^   Simples. 😁

[asingardenof]

5 minutes ago, gjones said:

You only need to be as loud as the drummer at any venue that doesn't have front of house PA. At your next gig/rehearsal, get you drummer to play as loud as they can and if you can still hear yourself then you'll be fine. Any venue that has a front of house PA will put drums and bass through it. 

 

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

I think if all of the other instruments are going through the PA then one cab and DI, if it`s (intended) only vocals and a kick-drum presence in the PA then another cab as well for a greater depth of sound.

 

OK, so as I understand it in a nutshell, as long as the venue isn't large with no FOH PA one cab will probably be fine. Thanks chaps!

[Woodinblack]

I use a pair of 1x12 RH cabs, because thats what i use, I like the sound of them together and it makes the amp at the right hight to put the mixer controls on top. I don't need the volume, the volume knob never gets to the half way stage, its the convenience and the sound.

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, asingardenof said:

So less power but more speaker area - does that equal louder, better dispersion, people at the back being able to hear, or does it just equate to a waste of several hundred pounds for no benefit?

More speaker area equals better efficiency so more air is moved for each watt. There are other benefits too; each speaker is sharing the load so you can push the amp up a little louder if it goes there without overloading the speakers. That really helps when you push the amp hard or if you boost the bass with your eq. 450W into four identical speakers will be louder than 500W into two. Secondly with each speaker handling less power the coils run cooler and running speakers hot means you get something called power compression as heat changes their impedance. Finally and probably the most significant benefit the taller your stack the better you will hear it.

 

So, there are benefits. The downside is as you say, cost. Those are nice speakers and should be capable of matching a drumkit unless your drummer is a monster. They are also capable of damaging your hearing if you don't wear plugs, so is more volume a great idea? Probably not, it looks like they are 4ohms so simply adding another speaker with your amp is problematic as it won't deal with 2 ohms. Adding another cab of 8ohms gives you a mis-match and one cab, If you add 12's as you suggest, will change your sound entirely and unpredictably. The sound might be better, more likely worse but it will be different. If you want the same sound but louder then add matching speakers which will mean two 8ohm cabs and more expense.

 

Honestly I'd live with what you have unless you no longer like the sound or are regularly struggling for more sound. At the very least that gives you time to really look around or until the GAS subsides.

[Matt P]

@Phil Starr the two 10s is switchable from 4 to 12 ohms, so a pair can either be 2 or 6 ohms.

 

Matt

[asingardenof]

14 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

More speaker area equals better efficiency so more air is moved for each watt. There are other benefits too; each speaker is sharing the load so you can push the amp up a little louder if it goes there without overloading the speakers. That really helps when you push the amp hard or if you boost the bass with your eq. 450W into four identical speakers will be louder than 500W into two. Secondly with each speaker handling less power the coils run cooler and running speakers hot means you get something called power compression as heat changes their impedance. Finally and probably the most significant benefit the taller your stack the better you will hear it.

 

So, there are benefits. The downside is as you say, cost. Those are nice speakers and should be capable of matching a drumkit unless your drummer is a monster. They are also capable of damaging your hearing if you don't wear plugs, so is more volume a great idea? Probably not, it looks like they are 4ohms so simply adding another speaker with your amp is problematic as it won't deal with 2 ohms. Adding another cab of 8ohms gives you a mis-match and one cab, If you add 12's as you suggest, will change your sound entirely and unpredictably. The sound might be better, more likely worse but it will be different. If you want the same sound but louder then add matching speakers which will mean two 8ohm cabs and more expense.

 

Honestly I'd live with what you have unless you no longer like the sound or are regularly struggling for more sound. At the very least that gives you time to really look around or until the GAS subsides.

Just to clarify the Barefaced Two10S cabs are switchable from 4 to 12 ohms each, so adding the second speaker would require both of them running at 12 ohms, so 6 ohms total, which is where the 450W figure came from. But I fully take your point.

[Merton]

Buy a second cab, because of all the reasons above, plus it looks cooler (which frankly, is the most important aspect to consider).

 

And then once you have that, start wondering if you should add a third.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I may (or may not) speak from experience.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Merton
Smelling pistakes

[Downunderwonder]

If you haven't played with a vertical stack before you really should find a way to try it. Ime it was a revelation. 

[Stofferson]

Can confirm it's lovely!

[Muzz]

10 hours ago, Merton said:

Buy a second cab, because of all the reasons above, plus it looks cooler (which frankly, is the most important aspect to consider).

 

And then once you have that, start wondering if you should add a third.

 

I may (or may not) speak from experience.

A while back, I was running a Magellan which could go down to 2.67 ohms (=3 x 4 ohm cabs), and I had a pair of Berg AE112s. One was good enough for a lot of gigs, two could cover them all, really.

 

I bought a third, mostly because it looked better as a taller stack, but it also sounded much bigger. I told myself I had the ultimate modular setup, but found I took all three everywhere, and if I didn't, there'd be a nagging 'I should have brought all three'. Then I realised I was carting 96lbs of cabs (albeit in three lumps) around everywhere, more weight than I'd carted since my 810 went...

 

I sold them all.

[BassAdder60]

10 minutes ago, Muzz said:

A while back, I was running a Magellan which could go down to 2.67 ohms (=3 x 4 ohm cabs), and I had a pair of Berg AE112s. One was good enough for a lot of gigs, two could cover them all, really.

 

I bought a third, mostly because it looked better as a taller stack, but it also sounded much bigger. I told myself I had the ultimate modular setup, but found I took all three everywhere, and if I didn't, there'd be a nagging 'I should have brought all three'. Then I realised I was carting 96lbs of cabs (albeit in three lumps) around everywhere, more weight than I'd carted since my 810 went...

 

I sold them all.

What was the Magellan amp like ?

 

Its been on my radar since running a 2.67 total cab load with my TH700

 

They appear to be a decent amp 

[Muzz]

Fantastic: at that point, I'd had all (most of) the usual suspects (MarkBass LMs (various), Aguilar TH, Genz Shuttle, Genz Streamliner, GK Fusion, etc, etc), and it was the warmest sounding of the lot (but it can do clean and quick, too), plus the two channels are very useful. And that new (at the time) 800w ICE power unit delivers much more thump than the older ones*. If I ever went back to a Class D, I'd buy another in a shot**.

 

 

* Points claimed here for not using The H Word...

** That's also 'if I ever went back to using a head and cab', which at this point in my circumstances is unlikely...

[asingardenof]

11 hours ago, Merton said:

Buy a second cab, because of all the reasons above, plus it looks cooler (which frankly, is the most important aspect to consider).

 

And then once you have that, start wondering if you should add a third.

 

I may (or may not) speak from experience.

 

Ah, my enabler chimes in 🤣

[asingardenof]

9 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

If you haven't played with a vertical stack before you really should find a way to try it. Ime it was a revelation. 

I've played through a 4x10 before, is it much different?

[asingardenof]

1 hour ago, Stofferson said:

Can confirm it's lovely!

 

Ooh baby!

[Mykesbass]

18 minutes ago, asingardenof said:

I've played through a 4x10 before, is it much different?

Vertical - one cone wide, four high. Lots of science behind why this is better. Have a search of @Bill Fitzmaurice posts to get the full story.

[Mykesbass]

Oh, and two cabs are just great (no science behind this one at all)!