Speaker cable question (running 2x big twin 2 gen3..)

[Benji85]

Hello everyone,

 

I've been a lifelong ashdown abm 500 Evo 1 user (for the last 20 odd years) it's a great amp. I recently got a barefaced big twin 2 gen 3 and it's glorious.

I play in a reggae funk band often in large halls without much pa support. I was finding I'm pushing the big twin 2 pretty much to breaking point a lot of the time.

 

Anyway I've ordered another one (off a member on here again) and also an ashdown CTM 100 amplifier to power them - as this will run down to 2 ohms which is needed when connecting both cabs together.

 

Anyway I'm looking to make sure I've got the correct cables for this but am unsure about the differences between 2 Vs 4 core.

 

I've been advised that the barefaced cab is wired in "+1-2" whatever this means?? I didn't hear this directly from barefaced however, only an eBay seller who I asked the same question to.

 

Does anyone know if the barefaced 12xn - or big twin 2 cabs require 2 or 4 core speakon cables?

Ad what this +1-2 means?

 

Thanks 

 

Ben

Edited June 15, 2023 by Benji85

[BassmanPaul]

I'm guessing t's referring to a SpeakOn cable. Normally a SpeakOn is wired +1 -! at both ends of the cable for regular use. To run the amp in Bridge mode, if the amp has two power amps, it would be wired +1 -1  at the speaker cabinet end and +1 +2 for the amp.. 

 

BTW a SpeakOn cable is all you should use with a high power amp. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by BassmanPaul

[Benji85]

Thanks Paul. Yes sorry speakon cables .

I recently heard back from Dave at ashdown he says that I would only need the 2 core version as the 4 core is for "bi amps" whatever that is! 🤣

I shall await the arrival of the amplifier first before ordering the cable as some models came with speakon connectors on the back and other with jack.

 

[Benji85]

Next thing is 2.5 Vs 4mm cable?? 😩🤔

[chris_b]

Your 500 watt amp is pushing a BT2 to "breaking point"????

 

I find that surprising. Maybe you are pushing the amp too hard?

 

In my loudest band I use a 700 watt amp into a BF BB2 and SM. With the volume at 1 o'clock, I'm getting no break up at all. Even using the B string on my PJ5.

Edited June 15, 2023 by chris_b

[Benji85]

9 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Your 500 watt amp is pushing a BT2 to "breaking point"????

 

I find that surprising. Maybe you are pushing the amp too hard?

 

In my loudest band I use a 700 watt amp into a BF BB2 and SM. With the volume at 1 o'clock, I'm getting no break up at all. Even using the B string on my PJ5.

Yes this is correct. I have the input gain so that my vu just about hits the "0" and then the output to about 1 o clock before the big twin starts to distort on certain notes.

 

It's definitely speaker distortion and not amp overdrive. Cheers 

[pbasspecial]

Are you sure it’s not the amp reaching breaking point. Is the gain too, making the preamp tubes over saturate. 
I have an ABM 600 into a BF with never any PA support and it barely breaks a sweat. Usually the gain is at 3 o clock and the master at 9 o’clock. 

[Benji85]

Well I make sure the vu meter doesn't go into the red as not to over drive the amp. 

I'm not sure what else I can do to? There is still some left on the output, as I said I only run it to around 1 o clock before it starts to distort the twin

[chris_b]

You are causing a 1600 watt cab to breakup by using a 500 watt amp?

 

I don't know Ashdown, but sounds like you're over-driving the preamp.

 

I'd email Barefaced and get their opinion on this.

[Benji85]

1 minute ago, chris_b said:

You are causing a 1600 watt cab to breakup by using a 500 watt amp?

 

I don't know Ashdown, but sounds like you're over-driving the preamp.

 

I'd email Barefaced and get their opinion on this.

 

If I was overdricing the preamp then how it the distortion linked to output gain and not the input gain? 

I understand what you're saying but power handling numbers rarely mean much. It's just a very good 2x12 at the end of the day

[Benji85]

I have emailed Alex at barefaced however asking if this is normal 

[chris_b]

We are all guessing. Email Barefaced. They will have a better chance of solving your problem .

 

PS beat me to it.

Edited June 15, 2023 by chris_b

[Reggaebass]

2 hours ago, Benji85 said:

I've ordered another one (off a member on here again) and also an ashdown CTM 100 amplifier to power them

Hi Ben, looking forward to hearing your feedback on how that setup goes, sounds great 

[Benji85]

Just now, Reggaebass said:

Hi Ben, looking forward to hearing your feedback on how that setup goes, sounds great 

Thanks man yes I will post pictures and gig report in a new thread after its first outing in 3 weeks time! 🤘

[BassmanPaul]

Just for interest what are you hoping a 100W amp will give you that you don't already have?

 

[Benji85]

1 hour ago, BassmanPaul said:

Just for interest what are you hoping a 100W amp will give you that you don't already have?

 

Well hopefully more volume via another cabinet and potentially a better nice warmer bottom end.

I know it's "only 100watts" but these are full valve watts and I've heard it's quite capable.

 

If it doesn't work out and is no louder then my current setup then I will use it to drive just one cabinet, keeping my current amp driving the other.

 

I will also have a nice full valve amp for recording etc 

 

Worse case scenario I don't get on with it at all and have to sell it but I've heard it produces a lovely tone

[Phil Starr]

15 hours ago, Benji85 said:

There is still some left on the output, as I said I only run it to around 1 o clock before it starts to distort the twin

 

That's a common misunderstanding of how the master volume control works. Your amp is divided into a pre amp section and the amplifier proper that drives the speaker. The master volume sits between those two controlling the voltage that goes into the amplifier. Voltage gain is important and will be done in stages in the pre-amp. Your guitar puts out a few thousandths of a volt and the amplifier needs around a volt to drive it to full power so the pre amp has a gain of just over 1,000. Not all basses have the same output and any pedals may have quite a lot of gain already but this is trimmed by your input gain. Inside the pre amp there are usually at least two gain stages The voltage is typically given a gain of about x100 to bring it up to a few 1/10ths of a volt and that is where the tone controls and any built in effects are done. After this a further stage adds more gain to bring that up to the voltage level the power amp needs.

 

Now crucially all pre amps need to be able to give enough gain that even a weak signal will drive the amp to full power. The manufacturer doesn't know what bass and which pedals you will use so you have spare gain, usually lots of it. You could probably drive 3x the voltage needed into your power amp if you turned the master up to 11 (OK six o'clock  ) You may well be driving your amp into distortion at 1 o'clock as you have no idea of the voltage gain in the last stage of your pre amp. I'll let you into a little secret here, extra gain costs nothing and a few manufacturers cheat a little and add pre amp gain, that makes their amp louder at 1 o'clock than everyone else's when you try them out in the shop, only when you get on the stage after you've bought do you find your amp overloads and you can't use anything past halfway on the output dial. Sound familiar?

 

 

15 hours ago, Benji85 said:

Next thing is 2.5 Vs 4mm cable?

The wire in your speaker coil is thinner than a top E on a guitar and handles all the power, any speaker cable will be thicker than that. Bass speaker leads are short  so don't need to be as thick as PA speaker cables which can be 10m+. Either would be fine

 

One thing occurs to me, you play Reggae? You are probably boosting bass and cutting some of the mids and treble? Boosting the bass will boost the voltage in your amp and cutting the mids will make it difficult to hear yourself on stage. You could be loud enough for the band and the audience but just struggling to hear. Have you been out into the audience to listen there?

 

The second effect of boosting the bass is that it makes the speakers move further and most speaker distortion is due to over excursion. Because what you are doing is specialised you may well be over-driving your speakers and they will eventually fail if that is the case. Adding the extra cab will reduce the excursion demands you are making by quite a lot but don't boost the bass so much if the speakers are overloading, that could be expensive. If the audience are getting a good deal and you are the only one not able to hear enough try boosting the mids on-stage and cutting them by the same amount on the PA if you can.

[Benji85]

Well guys I should have posted on here BEFORE I got the CTM ...

Tried it at home into my single big twin and I can already tellI t's not going to cut unfortunately. I should have know. 100 "valve watts" is still 100 watts.

 

Currently looking at getting an ABM 600 from a member on here not finalized yet but hopefully soon...

 

Abm 500 in one big twin

Abm 600 into the other 

My boss bass chorus has two outputs for stereo so I may put the cabs next to each other and try that or run mono into a vertical stack.

 

 

That should do it 

 

 

Alternatively the abm 600 into one big twin gets me where I need to be and sell on the other bits.

 

 

It's a learning curve I guess!

Cheers guys 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Benji85

[chris_b]

I'd not spend anymore money until you've tracked down what's going on with your current rig.

[Lozz196]

Having had both the ABM500 & 600 I found the 600 to be way more powerful. Maybe the extra EQ points help but it really was a different beast. Having put it through a Big Twin I couldn’t imagine the need for any more power.

[Benji85]

9 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Having had both the ABM500 & 600 I found the 600 to be way more powerful. Maybe the extra EQ points help but it really was a different beast. Having put it through a Big Twin I couldn’t imagine the need for any more power.

That's good to hear. I hope that my guy sells it then. 🤞

[Alec]

Next thing is 2.5 Vs 4mm cable?? 😩🤔

 

On 15/06/2023 at 15:04, Benji85 said:

Thanks Paul. Yes sorry speakon cables .

I recently heard back from Dave at ashdown he says that I would only need the 2 core version as the 4 core is for "bi amps" whatever that is! 🤣

I shall await the arrival of the amplifier first before ordering the cable as some models came with speakon connectors on the back and other with jack.

 

That is correct - 2 core is what you need.

 

FYI, bi-amping is where you have two amps.  Typically, but not always, one driving low frequency drivers, the other driving high frequency drivers.  4 core speaker cables allow you to feed both amplified signals with a single cable.  As with most things, a quick google will explain things in more depth if you're bothered.

 

On 15/06/2023 at 15:23, Benji85 said:

Next thing is 2.5 Vs 4mm cable?? 😩🤔

While there's no harm in using 4mm cable, it may make you feel more of a man.  However, 2.5mm would be ample.

 

Net power loss will be minimal, as the cable is so short (presumably sub 1m)

 

This page explains in more detail, along with a cable size calculator tool.

[BassmanPaul]

To add to the above. do not buy cables with NL2 connectors. Yes they will work but NL4 connectors are the standard through most manufacturers. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

It used to be that NL2 and NL4 weren't interchangeable, but Neutrik has been for a while. On that I'd only buy Neutrik. Knock-offs have been known to cause problems.

[fretmeister]

I am just amazed that a 500W amp with a Big Twin isn’t enough. 
 

If it isn’t, then the PA should be doing the work instead. I hope the OP has good ear protection.