Speaker cable question (running 2x big twin 2 gen3..)

[Benji85]

I've heard that nl4 connectors won't do anything as they are for bi amp systems so 2 with only use the 2 cores when connected anyways so seems pointless to get the nl4 (4 core ? ) Ones?

 

 

[Benji85]

17 hours ago, fretmeister said:

I am just amazed that a 500W amp with a Big Twin isn’t enough. 
 

If it isn’t, then the PA should be doing the work instead. I hope the OP has good ear protection.

 What can I say I love bass.

Yes I wear basic (one up from the foam ones) protectors but am looking at getting some custom ones made at some point 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

If the bass on stage is so loud that you need ear protection it's too loud, period. Low frequencies don't cause harm the way high frequencies do. Taking that into account industrial noise ordinances use the A-weighted scale, which doesn't register low frequencies. There's also the matter of the bass usually being louder out front, where you don't have boundary reflection sourced cancellations that are usually present on club size stages.

[Mottlefeeder]

3 hours ago, Benji85 said:

I've heard that nl4 connectors won't do anything as they are for bi amp systems so 2 with only use the 2 cores when connected anyways so seems pointless to get the nl4 (4 core ? ) Ones?

 

 

My experience is that 4-plugs won't fit 2-sockets unless they are speakon/jack combo sockets, but 2-plugs will fit 4-sockets.

Most budget scrapped speakers that I have dismantled had 4-sockets with terminals 1+ & 2+ connected together and likewise for 1- & 2- . 

David

[BassmanPaul]

NL4 plugs will not fit into an NL2 socket that's true. I"ve yet to see an amp or speaker cabinet supplied with nL2 sockets. I prefer to use the right plug to connect to a socket. Always buy the proper Neutrik  NL4 connectors. There's much less grief involved that way.  

[Benji85]

5 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

If the bass on stage is so loud that you need ear protection it's too loud, period. Low frequencies don't cause harm the way high frequencies do. Taking that into account industrial noise ordinances use the A-weighted scale, which doesn't register low frequencies. There's also the matter of the bass usually being louder out front, where you don't have boundary reflection sourced cancellations that are usually present on club size stages.

 

Perhaps but there is this thing called a "drum kit" that I have to keep up with.

That's what the hearing protection is mainly for. Cymbals generally aren't that great for your hearing 😂

 

Have you actually ever played in a band?

Edited June 18, 2023 by Benji85
Typo

[BassmanPaul]

I have and it was an overdriven Fender Rhodes through a 100W amp and 4x12 right behind my head. My latest set of hearing aids cost me $6000 and I detest them!

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

7 minutes ago, Benji85 said:

Have you actually ever played in a band?

😄 I was in Baghdad while you were still in your dad's bag.

I played in my first band in 1965. Some of the guys in my circle of musician friends back then were Steven Tallarico, Joe Perry and Tom Hamilton. Maybe you've heard of them? They wanted me to join them in 1970, but I was in college and didn't want to go full time as a touring musician at that point. After I got my degree I did.

[PaulThePlug]

13 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

I was in Baghdad while you were still in your dad's bag.

Just lost my coffee... class

Edited June 18, 2023 by PaulThePlug

[Benji85]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

😄 I was in Baghdad while you were still in your dad's bag.

I played in my first band in 1965. Some of the guys in my circle of musician friends back then were Steven Tallarico, Joe Perry and Tom Hamilton. Maybe you've heard of them? They wanted me to join them in 1970, but I was in college and didn't want to go full time as a touring musician at that point. After I got my degree I did.

That's all very well and good.. but I don't see why you're saying I don't need hearing protection for playing on stage? I think it's quite common? It's really not the bass that can cause the damage as I said the drum kit and high frequency of the guitar is the worse.

[warwickhunt]

37 minutes ago, Benji85 said:

That's all very well and good.. but I don't see why you're saying I don't need hearing protection for playing on stage? I think it's quite common? It's really not the bass that can cause the damage as I said the drum kit and high frequency of the guitar is the worse.

 

I think Bill would agree that anyone playing with a loud drummer should take care of their hearing but you are likely missing the point that everyone else on the thread thinks.  This being that your 'present' amp + cab should be so loud that you almost need double ear protection.  Adding another amp to drive another cab is not what most folk are suggesting is the answer to your problem.  1100 watts into a pair of Big Twins is at a point (or way beyond) where PA should be carrying the bass.  

 

Personally from what you've said about clipping/distortion, you've got an issue that needs addressing before you add more amps/cabs! 

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Absolutely it's drums and guitars that threaten one's hearing. If you, or for that matter they, need protection they're playing too loud. I remember doing that. Back in the days when we didn't know the difference between good and loud we played good and loud!  In our defense that was when PA support didn't exist. There's no excuse for it today. The backline carries the stage, the PA carries the room.

[Benji85]

26 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Absolutely it's drums and guitars that threaten one's hearing. If you, or for that matter they, need protection they're playing too loud. I remember doing that. Back in the days when we didn't know the difference between good and loud we played good and loud!  In our defense that was when PA support didn't exist. There's no excuse for it today. The backline carries the stage, the PA carries the room.

I understand what you're saying man but unless you have a very gentle drummer or one that plays with brushes etc the volume levels are going to require hearing protection imo

[BassmanPaul]

In my mind it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Benji85]

6 minutes ago, BassmanPaul said:

In my mind it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

I agree. If your band has a drummer that uses solid sticks you need ear protection 

And even then I'd use some just to be on the safe side 

 💯

Edited June 18, 2023 by Benji85
Add

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I wouldn't call my drummer of the last 35 years gentle. But he doesn't let his ego get in the way of his musicianship. None of the better drummers I've ever worked with, whether I was on stage or in the FOH, were pounders. That's a very long list, and where FOH is concerned includes some very familiar names, including Ringo.

[Lozz196]

I wonder if it`s that some musicians (especially drummers?) find it difficult to make the transition from where they have to fill a room with sound from their own gear alone to suddenly having FOH to do the hard work for them that they keep on pounding as hard as possible. 

[warwickhunt]

13 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I wonder if it`s that some musicians (especially drummers?) find it difficult to make the transition from where they have to fill a room with sound from their own gear alone to suddenly having FOH to do the hard work for them that they keep on pounding as hard as possible. 

 

Your average gigging muso (not pro touring band) has never had it so good.

 

50-60's they had very little in the way of loud amplification or efficient cabs; a couple of 10-20w guitar rigs (that included bass) and 'maybe' 50 - 100w WEM PA.

 

60-70's saw the relatively cheap transistor amplification taking over and 50w guitar and 100 - 200w bass rigs were available.  

 

80-90's... we are into 500w bass amps being readily available and a 1000w power amp driving your passive tops was normal.

 

00's to the present day - watts are dirt cheap (and mean little), you can buy a 500-1000w bass amp for a couple of hundred quid; PA's are active 2000w per side and weigh little in comparison to the past!  

 

A lot of generalisation obviously but through time, amplification has increased in power and efficiency, whilst getting cheaper.  We would (almost) all have bought into the ethos of needing the biggest and best and what of our drummer friends... they hit harder, so the band play louder; a vicious circle?  

[tauzero]

On 16/06/2023 at 07:32, Phil Starr said:

That's a common misunderstanding of how the master volume control works. Your amp is divided into a pre amp section and the amplifier proper that drives the speaker. The master volume sits between those two controlling the voltage that goes into the amplifier. Voltage gain is important and will be done in stages in the pre-amp. Your guitar puts out a few thousandths of a volt and the amplifier needs around a volt to drive it to full power so the pre amp has a gain of just over 1,000. Not all basses have the same output and any pedals may have quite a lot of gain already but this is trimmed by your input gain. Inside the pre amp there are usually at least two gain stages The voltage is typically given a gain of about x100 to bring it up to a few 1/10ths of a volt and that is where the tone controls and any built in effects are done. After this a further stage adds more gain to bring that up to the voltage level the power amp needs.

 

Just as a minor point, I think you're understating the output of a bass. I've found it's in the order of 100-200mV. I suspect the interface between preamp and power amp is generally line level (not sure if that's 1V or slightly more) so the first stage gain would have to be more like 5 or 10 times.

[Phil Starr]

53 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

Just as a minor point, I think you're understating the output of a bass. I've found it's in the order of 100-200mV. I suspect the interface between preamp and power amp is generally line level (not sure if that's 1V or slightly more) so the first stage gain would have to be more like 5 or 10 times.

Ha ha fair point, I was deliberately keeping it simple. Obviously it depends upon where you measure the note which decays over time, the bridge PUP is weaker than the neck PUP, how hard you pluck and how many windings and what sort of magnetic material is in the PUP. I've double checked (surprisingly hard to find actual measurements) and I think it would be fairer to say 10's of mV but peaking in the range you say. This is a single pluck of an open E on a P PUP Peak voltage is actually 320mV, 76mV rms across the sweep. Bit surprised at that!

 

[itu]

21 hours ago, Benji85 said:

I understand what you're saying man but unless you have a very gentle drummer or one that plays with brushes etc the volume levels are going to require hearing protection imo

Most of the bands I've been playing, drummers have been so good, I haven't needed ear protection. Yes, there are hard handed hitters, but most of the drummers have been really good. You can also take several steps away from drums.

 

We have an agreement in our rehearsals, that if it's too loud, whoever can say it out. Loud. Even drummer has said so. Our PA is 1.5 kW / side (JBL PRX 735). It helps keeping the sound good, but we are far from high levels. And we are 8 players and 4 singers.

[Benji85]

That's pretty cool Itu, but I do think you are probably in the minority unfortunately 

[Chienmortbb]

11 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

00's to the present day - watts are dirt cheap (and mean little), you can buy a 500-1000w bass amp for a couple of hundred quid; PA's are active 2000w per side and weigh little in comparison to the past!  

Do not believe all the marketing hype. Many manufacturers quote peak power or even peak to peak power. Look at the Mackie Thump 12A here https://mackie.com/intl/products/loudspeakers/thump-series/thump12A.html#gallery-2.

 

Quoted as 1200 watts, but the rear tells a different story. It shows a power consumption of 75W. Now, many items are quoted at 1/8 full power. On that basis, the Thump 12A has a 600W amp. I have seen inside Mackie Thumps that had a power amplifier Class D amplifier capable of no more than 300 watts, yet that was quoted as a 1000 watt amp. Many others are just as bad.

[warwickhunt]

5 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Do not believe all the marketing hype. Many manufacturers quote peak power or even peak to peak power. Look at the Mackie Thump 12A here https://mackie.com/intl/products/loudspeakers/thump-series/thump12A.html#gallery-2.

 

Quoted as 1200 watts, but the rear tells a different story. It shows a power consumption of 75W. Now, many items are quoted at 1/8 full power. On that basis, the Thump 12A has a 600W amp. I have seen inside Mackie Thumps that had a power amplifier Class D amplifier capable of no more than 300 watts, yet that was quoted as a 1000 watt amp. Many others are just as bad.

 

Hence my comment... 'watts are dirt cheap (and mean little)'!    

 

I own and have owned a fair few amps over the last 44 bass playing/gigging years and I came to the conclusion some years back that quoted wattage figures were there for the gullible.  I know a few companies who I'd likely not need to check their figures and I'd trust them to be representative of what levels an amp might go to before running out of steam but I likewise know those manufacturers that I'd not wasted energy researching how they come to their numbers; the same goes for cabs as well.  As soon as a company moves into the high numbers for any attribute of an amp/cab I just start switching off and thinking blah blah blah... and I knock off 25-75% of what they say.  Case in point being an Alto FRFR 10" powered cab quoting 2000w... don't be silly.  I knew it was closer to a max of 200-300w.

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

I have seen inside Mackie Thumps that had a power amplifier Class D amplifier capable of no more than 300 watts, yet that was quoted as a 1000 watt amp. Many others are just as bad.

If you think that's bad get a load of this, and I do mean load: https://musysic.com/products/musysic-professional-4-channels-2x9600-watts-d-class-1u-power-amplifier-mu-d9600

😄