Anyone gig with a 2 x 10??

[redstriper]

[quote name='Linus27' post='478256' date='May 3 2009, 02:57 PM']I own a MAG 300H head and MAG 2 x 10 cab but have never gigged them so I don't even know myself [/quote]

Why don't you try gigging with your present rig before buying another?

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='redstriper' post='479847' date='May 5 2009, 01:05 PM']Why don't you try gigging with your present rig before buying another?[/quote]

Methinks that the GAS fairy is currently lodging in Linus27's attic.

S.P.

[Linus27]

[quote name='51m0n' post='479838' date='May 5 2009, 12:56 PM']Errr how on earth did you manage to conclude that an LM II is tonally limiting????

Really I cannot imagine how you came to that conclusion. I expect the filters werent off, but maybe the amp was bust.

Honestly, I've never heard a better amp for my needs so to hear someone dismiss it like that is pretty weird to me, the eq section is super powerful, and the filters are a great solution to 90% of player's needs.

I'm certainly not trying to suggest you should all be using MB gear but I am interested to find out why you thought it was so poor, in what way was it tonally limited?[/quote]

OK, I'll try my best. It was running through the Markbass 4 x 10. I set every thing to flat and made sure the filters were turned off and played my Stingray with everything on flat. My initial reaction was it sounded ok. Very punchy but nothing spectacular. Nothing to make me go oh wow. I then played with the filters. First I tried the VPF and dialled it all the way from full to just a little bit on. This really sounded very good and I settled on 3 o clock for a nice punch tone. A really nice punchy, exciting sound. I then turned the VPF off and tried the VLE Filter. This sounded horrible, boomy, bassy and muddy. Would be great if you wanted to play dub music or maybe reggea. I then tried mixing both filters and again, this just sounded horrible. The VPF sounded great on it own. I then tried it flat again with both filters off and this showed how great the VPF filter is as flat, my initail thoughts of it sounding ok had now changed to ok to dull. The tone was very mid heavy which I really do not like. So I set about trying to improve this using the graphic and I could improve it but not to a standard that was acceptable for me to go wow. So I reset everything again and went back to the VPF filter and it then sounded very good. I could happily live with that one setting but I thought for a £500 head, it was a lot to play for just one setting.

At this point I was a little dissapointed as I had high hopes for it so I decided to set the Ashdown ABM EVO III head up through the Ashdown ABM 4 x 10 to just get a reference in case it was some other factor like the room etc but the Ashdown immediatly sounded great. Shaping the sound was versatile, the tone, despite not being as punchy and more alive. The Markbass had a very tight, compact, punchy sound. The Ashdown was very wide, open and airy. To my ears, I prefered the tone of the Ashdown rig. I then tried the Ashdown MAG to compare again as this is what I own and it sounded like the ABM range but thinner and with less range but still very good.

I don't think there is really anything wrong with the Markbass Little Mark head, its just a case off only finding one setting I was happy with tonally and any other setting really did not suit me. It may have even been the Markbass cab letting it down. I had high hopes for that also as it only weighs 25kg where the Ashdown weighs 36kg.

[Linus27]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' post='479880' date='May 5 2009, 01:31 PM']Methinks that the GAS fairy is currently lodging in Linus27's attic.

S.P.[/quote]

[Linus27]

[quote name='redstriper' post='479847' date='May 5 2009, 01:05 PM']Why don't you try gigging with your present rig before buying another?[/quote]

My current rig with one cab only puts out about 180 watts. With two cabs I get 300 watts. My band has a very loud argentinian latin loving drummer, a percussionist and two guitarists and 3 vocals. At the rehearsal rooms, the 300 watt combos (which must be pushing out 180) have struggled. I also want to go down to one cab (thus the question about a single 2 x 10 or possible 4 x 10) and a larger head, something thats going to push out about 300 watts at 8 ohms and 500 at 4 ohms. 300 should easily be enough but I also have the scope to expand if I ever need to.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Linus27' post='479890' date='May 5 2009, 01:43 PM']OK, I'll try my best. It was running through the Markbass 4 x 10....


....I don't think there is really anything wrong with the Markbass Little Mark head, its just a case off only finding one setting I was happy with tonally and any other setting really did not suit me. It may have even been the Markbass cab letting it down. I had high hopes for that also as it only weighs 25kg where the Ashdown weighs 36kg.[/quote]

Seems like you gave it a decent work out then!

I think you are probably bang on about the cab though, the MB 4x10 doesn't shy away from the mid range at all, and a lot of people dont like its sound as a result. I dont think it accentuates them particularly, I do think most cab manufacturers tend to try and engineer in a little dip in response in the mids to clean thing up a bit, or the crossoveer does it.

I think the MB cabs definitely colour the sound, whereas with a more neutral cab I prefer the output. Hence me going for Berg (once I heard it it totally convinced me).

To be fair the VLE did exactly what it says on the tin though, And it does it in a slightly different way from a more conventional treble IMO, but if you dont like that kind of sound it will never ever be for you. Its good for dub, blues, old school rock and roll or any time when you cant get to the tweeter attenuator.

VPF upto 9' O'clock is IMO like dialing in the head to where a lot of amps consider themselves flat - any more than this and you have lost so much mid info that you wont be heard anyway IME.

I would say that the EQ is definitely as powerful as any non-sweepable out there, although I think the choice of 40Hz for the low shelving is nuts, 80Hz would be more appropriate for most situations, and again I personally think this is a bit of a reflection on the cabs...

If Ashdown floats your boat then congrats for finding the sound that does it for you!

Would have been interested to hear what you thought of the LMII into the Ashdown 4x10 though....

[51m0n]

[quote name='Linus27' post='479897' date='May 5 2009, 01:49 PM']My current rig with one cab only puts out about 180 watts. With two cabs I get 300 watts. My band has a very loud argentinian latin loving drummer, a percussionist and two guitarists and 3 vocals. At the rehearsal rooms, the 300 watt combos (which must be pushing out 180) have struggled. I also want to go down to one cab (thus the question about a single 2 x 10 or possible 4 x 10) and a larger head, something thats going to push out about 300 watts at 8 ohms and 500 at 4 ohms. 300 should easily be enough but I also have the scope to expand if I ever need to.[/quote]

LH500 over a berg ae410 will win that battle....

[Linus27]

[quote name='51m0n' post='479907' date='May 5 2009, 01:59 PM']Seems like you gave it a decent work out then!

I think you are probably bang on about the cab though, the MB 4x10 doesn't shy away from the mid range at all, and a lot of people dont like its sound as a result. I dont think it accentuates them particularly, I do think most cab manufacturers tend to try and engineer in a little dip in response in the mids to clean thing up a bit, or the crossoveer does it.

I think the MB cabs definitely colour the sound, whereas with a more neutral cab I prefer the output. Hence me going for Berg (once I heard it it totally convinced me).

To be fair the VLE did exactly what it says on the tin though, And it does it in a slightly different way from a more conventional treble IMO, but if you dont like that kind of sound it will never ever be for you. Its good for dub, blues, old school rock and roll or any time when you cant get to the tweeter attenuator.

VPF upto 9' O'clock is IMO like dialing in the head to where a lot of amps consider themselves flat - any more than this and you have lost so much mid info that you wont be heard anyway IME.

I would say that the EQ is definitely as powerful as any non-sweepable out there, although I think the choice of 40Hz for the low shelving is nuts, 80Hz would be more appropriate for most situations, and again I personally think this is a bit of a reflection on the cabs...

If Ashdown floats your boat then congrats for finding the sound that does it for you!

Would have been interested to hear what you thought of the LMII into the Ashdown 4x10 though....[/quote]

A lot of what you say is actually really really interesting. The point you make about dialling the VPF up is in your opinion what other amps are flat especially. I usually run my Ashdown and infact most amps flat. I hate mids and so keep things either flat or turn a little bit of treble and bass on or the mids down a little. I really do mean a little. When I plugged into the Ashdown ABM, I just set it flat and it sounded perfect right away. So its no surprise I liked the VPF filter

What I should had done was tried the Little Mark with the Ashdown ABM 4 x 10 like you say. I think, the fact I was in there for 2 hours playing and had the whole room to myself, I kind of felt I overstayed my welcome. Still, I should had tried it.

[Jono Bolton]

I gig, or have gigged, with an ABM 210, and my solution was to get 4 rubber feet for the side of the cab so I could sit it vertically. Ashdown did do a 2X12, but not for long, and they're very hard to come by now.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Linus27' post='479931' date='May 5 2009, 02:19 PM']A lot of what you say is actually really really interesting. The point you make about dialling the VPF up is in your opinion what other amps are flat especially. I usually run my Ashdown and infact most amps flat. I hate mids and so keep things either flat or turn a little bit of treble and bass on or the mids down a little. I really do mean a little. When I plugged into the Ashdown ABM, I just set it flat and it sounded perfect right away. So its no surprise I liked the VPF filter

What I should had done was tried the Little Mark with the Ashdown ABM 4 x 10 like you say. I think, the fact I was in there for 2 hours playing and had the whole room to myself, I kind of felt I overstayed my welcome. Still, I should had tried it.[/quote]

Absolutely.

To be honest I went through a whole mids epiphany when I got back into playing. I used to be definitely of the opinion that a 'little' scoop was always right. But since getting much better kit the mids actually make the sound for me. No I dont boost, but I run everything absolutely flat. And lo and behold in a band mix it just sits absolutely spot on in the mix in a way that it never used to.

2 hours to test out nearly a grands worth of kit (maybe more). No problem if you are going to splash the cash, being a t#sser if you're not.

When I bought the ae410 Mark at bassdirect let me play for over 2 hours, we tried the ae210s against the ae410, we checked what I could get in my car, we went through about 12 basses that I wasnt going to buy just then etc etc As a result he's got all my custom for new purchases since (bar my rack tuner cos he doesnt do them). He understands that it is in his best interests to let you fiddle, let the gear sell itself to you - he doesnt really involve himself in that process beyond answering questions and offering advice when asked. As such he is the most dangerous salesman I know - visit him at your peril

Fortunately most other shops dont 'get' this at all!

[alexclaber]

The one thing I'll repeat is that watts are practically irrelevant. You need to consider both the sensitivity of the cab and the real-world power handling (not the silly thermal figure that's always quoted but the actual excursion limited power handling in the lows). That is why I said there's no point getting a more powerful amp if you're going to put it through an Ashdown 2x10" which won't manage to cleanly handle more than about 150W in the lows.

I still think Pete's rig would whip any reasonably sized Ashdown rig whilst weighing half as much and thus is well worth hearing but then I would say that wouldn't I?

Alex

[51m0n]

Having demo'ed Alex's Compact in GAK the other day (by pure chance) I'd atest to it laying absolute waste to any similar sized cab I have ever tried.

Massive low end, lovely grindy mids, and enough top for clarity - really, I whipped the old thumb out for a bit of tasteless nonsense and the top was all there.

Fantastic cab, if you want a one cab solution, and having heard what you like I would recommend this or even more Alex' Big One (has a smoother mid range, and hence even more clarity) and an LH500 on top of it.

That would be you sorted, for ever (OK you could put 2K through the Big One if you wanted, but you dont need too).

'Nuff said.

[Rowbee]

[quote name='51m0n' post='479967' date='May 5 2009, 03:01 PM']When I bought the ae410 Mark at bassdirect let me play for over 2 hours, we tried the ae210s against the ae410, we checked what I could get in my car, we went through about 12 basses that I wasnt going to buy just then etc etc As a result he's got all my custom for new purchases since (bar my rack tuner cos he doesnt do them). He understands that it is in his best interests to let you fiddle, let the gear sell itself to you - he doesnt really involve himself in that process beyond answering questions and offering advice when asked. As such he is the most dangerous salesman I know - visit him at your peril

Fortunately most other shops dont 'get' this at all![/quote]

A big +1 for Mark at Bass Direct! I have the luxury of being just down the road (if living in Coventry could ever be considered a luxury) and I've spent several hours in store talking to Mark. Based on past experiences, I've tended to stay away from music shops if I can but he is just genuinely passionate about bass playing and totally into good sound, good gear and totally satisfied customers.

[4000]

[quote name='51m0n' post='480176' date='May 5 2009, 05:48 PM']Having demo'ed Alex's Compact in GAK the other day (by pure chance) I'd atest to it laying absolute waste to any similar sized cab I have ever tried.

Massive low end, lovely grindy mids, and enough top for clarity - really, I whipped the old thumb out for a bit of tasteless nonsense and the top was all there.

Fantastic cab, if you want a one cab solution, and having heard what you like I would recommend this or even more Alex' Big One (has a smoother mid range, and hence even more clarity) and an LH500 on top of it.

That would be you sorted, for ever (OK you could put 2K through the Big One if you wanted, but you dont need too).

'Nuff said.[/quote]

In my brief experience (unfortunately not yet at real volume) I'd say exactly the same; get a Compact. It doesn't appear to be right for everything (my Epifani UL502+the Compact seems to be a weird mix; all the honky mids in the world, so much so they're difficult to tame - any idea why this should be Alex?) but my ABM500 sounds great through it. It sounds very similar in many ways to some of the more rock-orientated 4x10s I've used, but a bit clearer; in fact pretty much exactly as Alex has suggested, and I'd certainly guess it would keep up volume and bottom wise.

[alexclaber]

Interesting - my understanding was that the UL502 is meant to sound very clean and pure, and as my U5/PLX rig is very clean and pure too and works great with the Compact I'd have thought that it too would have worked well. However I've noticed a lot of discussion on talkbass about the UL502 being particularly fussy about which cabs it sounds good with, so maybe it just doesn't like the Compact? Try some aggressive EQing - crank up that bottom!

Alex

[phatbass787]

[quote name='Linus27' post='478405' date='May 3 2009, 06:38 PM']Thanks guys, appreciate the help. looks liek a fair few are turning 2 x 10's on their side. If only Ashdown made a 2 x 12 or a 3 x 10 Anyway, I think I will go with the 4 x 10.[/quote]

I was in Academy Of Sound in stoke briefly the other day and they were selling a couple of Ashdown ABM 2 x 12's which I didnt even know Ashdown ever made, they were about the same size as a 410 though so wouldnt save much on the size issue, bet they sound nice though and rare for sure, the only time ive seen ashdown 2x12s in the past was in John Entwistles rig.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='Linus27' post='479100' date='May 4 2009, 04:42 PM']No, I didn't in the end. I did not want to waste his time in the end as I was still trying to decide what to go for.[/quote]
I don't think it would be a waste of time, but good luck whatever you choose.

[quote name='51m0n' post='480176' date='May 5 2009, 05:48 PM'][[i]The Compact is a[/i]] Fantastic cab, if you want a one cab solution, and having heard what you like I would recommend this or even more Alex' Big One (has a smoother mid range, and hence even more clarity) and an LH500 on top of it.

That would be you sorted, for ever (OK you could put 2K through the Big One if you wanted, but you dont need too).

'Nuff said.[/quote]
I recently moved from ABM to LH1000 and have never looked back. I've demo'd both the Compact & Big One with the LH1000 bridged & I found the Big One better in [i]my[/i] bands environment [2 guits, drummer, punk/rock] as it has a great off-axis response due to the midrange driver, meaning you will hear yourself better & so will they. The head is the same weight as an ABM and the cab is 18lb lighter than me old ABM 2x10. Happy days.

Edited May 5, 2009 by johnnylager

[4000]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='480361' date='May 5 2009, 08:45 PM']Interesting - my understanding was that the UL502 is meant to sound very clean and pure, and as my U5/PLX rig is very clean and pure too and works great with the Compact I'd have thought that it too would have worked well. However I've noticed a lot of discussion on talkbass about the UL502 being particularly fussy about which cabs it sounds good with, so maybe it just doesn't like the Compact? Try some aggressive EQing - crank up that bottom!

Alex[/quote]

My thoughts exactly Alex. Having successfully used a UL502 through various Epifani cabs using the same basses (my Seis) I can only conclude the Epi cabs must be comparatively very mid-scooped. The same eq that worked with the Epis with the Compact produces hugely different (and far more unpleasantly honky) results. I was really struggling to get a good sound with my Sei Melt whatever I did with the eq, although I'm working on it (that bass still seems to sound best through EBS).

I got a better sound with my Ric after some experimentation, but to approximate the sound I usually use - which is very different to what I want out of the Seis - I had to use the first channel with the mid scoop in, cut ALL the mids entirely (!), and boost both bass (around 2 o'clock) and treble (pretty much flat out). I've NEVER boosted bass in my life with a Ric, but it was the mid eq that really surprised me. For comparison, the settings on the Ashdown are bass about 10 o'clock, middle rotary flat, treble around 4 o'clock, a fair old kick in the low and high mid sliders, and the preshape in (it's somewhat Squire-esque for reference). I'm hoping to soon try a friend's LMK to see how that works.

Regardless of the above, I would suggest to anyone thinking of getting a typical 4x10 that they try the Compact. It appears to do easily the same job in a package that weighs only 32lbs. It actually feels lighter than either of my heads, although the Epi is supposed to be lighter. Oh, and as stated elsewhere an ABM sits on it like it was born to do so.

[alexclaber]

Can you try running fdeck's frequency response analyser through your UL502? I'd be very interested to see the results:

[url="http://personalpages.tds.net/~fdeck/bass/#projects"]http://personalpages.tds.net/~fdeck/bass/#projects[/url]
[url="http://personalpages.tds.net/~fdeck/bass/freesa.zip"]http://personalpages.tds.net/~fdeck/bass/freesa.zip[/url]

I'm pretty certain the Epi UL cabs are scooped in the mids mainly because they have quite a hump in the midbass and then the bright compression tweeter.

The strange thing is that the Compact is almost completely flat through the midrange, with just a bit more ouput in the lower treble region but by that point the dispersion is narrowing so it sounds more mellow than boosted there.

Alex

[4000]

Alex, you're talking to someone who can just about work a computer .......but I'll have a look and see what sense I can make of it. Just don't expect anything!

The response of the Compact with the Ashdown didn't surprise me at all; it sounded pretty much how I expected. Compared to my old Trace 4x10 (sealed & pre-Kevlar) it had similar bottom ("toit!" in the words of Goldmember ) although with better handling, smoother and more balanced (though not quite as grindy or barky) mids, a slightly clearer voice and possibly slightly more extended top. Compared to my old Trace 1153, much tighter lows, again not quite as barky and possibly with marginally less upper end detail than the 1153, but with much greater power handling and a more balanced sound (and weighs half as much; less than a third as much as the 4x10).