Template Agreement for buying, sharing and splitting cost of PA - has anyone got one I could use?

[Greg Edwards69]

2 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

Handy if you can rely on the Bank of Dad (yours or someone else's) to insulate you from financial reality, but not universally applicable. As for "What he buys and how much he spends" being "up to him", I doubt you would be happy if he decided to turn up with gear he paid £150 for in Cash Converters...

 

The PA is not equivalent to your bass amp. Only you use that, but everyone relies on the PA.

Wow. Talk about twisting words! We're not relying on the bank of mum and dad. He's a soundman, who just happens to be the father of one of the guitarists (the latter of which happens to be a Director at an Accountancy).We're not a bunch of kids. We're adults ranging from 40 to 60 years old and all financially independent. This is why I said "we're lucky enough to be in the position...". I realise it's not universally applicable.

 

If he did turn up with cheap, unreliable gear that's not up to the task, he wouldn't be our soundman anymore!

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Greg Edwards69

[Paul S]

What my lot did was this.  I bought the pa for £2K.  Working on a nominal depreciation of 50% over 3 years, losing £1K which was divided by the 3 of us, the other 2 band members each paid me £130 each year for the first 3 years.  We are now looking at the next 3 years, 50% depreciation, so £500 over 3 years divided by the 3 of us so I expect to get £65 from them both each year for 3 years.  But the pa is still mine, they are just covering their share of the depreciation costs as opposed to part ownership.

 

Not sure what happens if any of us leave the band, though.  If it is me I guess I sell it to the others but if either of them go then it is less straight forward.  We'll work it out in the event anything happens, so hopefully won't need to.

[Dan Dare]

4 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Wow. Talk about twisting words! We're not relying on the bank of mum and dad. He's a soundman, who just happens to be the father of one of the guitarists (the latter of which happens to be a Director at an Accountancy).We're not a bunch of kids. We're adults ranging from 40 to 60 years old and all financially independent. This is why I said "we're lucky enough to be in the position...". I realise it's not universally applicable.

 

If he did turn up with cheap, unreliable gear that's not up to the task, he wouldn't be our soundman anymore!

 

 

 

Not twisting your words at all. Yours is an unusual (and fortunate) situation, which you acknowledge tbf to you. However, very few are likely to be in your circumstances - a member of the band having a father who owns a decent PA and who is prepared to turn out for £50. 

 

Were that not the case, you and the band would have to put your hands in your pockets - either to hire or buy a PA - so the Bank of Dad (not mum and dad) is lending a helping hand, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Dan Dare

[Damnthatlazlo]

6 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

I had this in one band. They expected the singer to pay, operate, and maintain a PA. 

Had this in a band as well. Made sense, it was effectively his instrument and amplifier. 
 

we did have access to free space and we were paying for rehearsal rooms only because of this. 
plus it was just the amp. We had a decent set of speakers and a desk. 
 

but essentially it came down to it’s not really supposed to be the band who pay to hear you! 

[Count Bassy]

I have provided PA and lights to my current Ceilidh band (in which I play melodeon) for about 25 years, without charging.

The old kit is now getting a bit heavy for us to lug around (It hasn't got any heavier, but we're all getting old and decrepit).

I said to the band that I needed to modernise it to a lighter system, but would have to charge a bit per gig (not so many these days).

 

Tha band all said NO! You buy it, tell us what it costs and we'll all contribute equally, BUT the PA remains yours. I.e they appreciate the free use over the last 25 years, and are happy to pay restropectively for its use.

 

I consider myself very fortunate to have such good bandmates (Who thankfully can all afford to make that offer).

 

 

Perhaps I should have posted this in the  "Daily Awesomeness" thread.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Count Bassy

[TimR]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

 

Really? Replace the missing part with another of the same type and I rather think it will.

 

That's handy because the person leaving will have exactly the missing part you need. So no need to go messing around looking and waiting. Of course you just have to negotiate a price... 😆

 

Makes no sense to me. Buy the PA and worry about buying pepeople share out when they leave, no need to assign people with owning parts of the PA. Who owns all the special cables? That's really going to screw things up when your drummer disappears in a bad mood and takes his cables with him...

[Dad3353]

51 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

Not twisting your words at all. Your is an unusual (and fortunate) situation, which you acknowledge tbf to you. However, very few are likely to be in your circumstances - a member of the band having a father who owns a decent PA and who is prepared to turn out for £50. 

 

Were that not the case, you and the band would have to put your hands in your pockets - either to hire or buy a PA - so the Bank of Dad (not mum and dad) is lending a helping hand, whether you acknowledge it or not.

 

Ha..! For the first few years of Kiemsa, I, as the father of Our Eldest, their 1st Guitar, provided the PA, and drove everyone to gigs and back in our Renault Espace, pulling a hired trailer for the gear. I did their sound from the desk until the Drummer (studying to become a Sound Engineer...) relinquished the drums to take over the desk, and I continued doing the lights. A new, better, drummer was brought in. We toured France for quite some time; as the gigs got better, the PA became a venue one. Soooooo... Yes, it can and does happen that there's a willing dad to do the heavy lifting. 

[Jack]

IME, try to avoid split ownership.

 

My hard rock band bought a set of speakers and subs for £1000 after we had been gigging for a bit. I bought it and all gig money went to paying it off until it was paid off. 7 years later the drummer left and demanded to be bought out, leading to strong language and general miserableness on our behalves. In the end the 4 of us chucked them £50 each just to be done. It's a real shame because it left a bad taste, money ruins things.

 

In my indie band I own the mixer rack, the drummer owns the tops and the guitarist owns the subs. All bought outright and all looked after by ourselves. The only shirker is the other guitarist but then why make him buy something when we all own it already? Small items, like new cables or something, come straight off the top from a gig payment by mutual agreement beforehand. 

 

I think my new function band does it the best to be honest. The singer owns the entire PA and lighting rig and gets £100 right off the top of any gig for maintenance, carrying and setup. In return for a £25 cut in pay I can have no carrying, no maintenance fees, no subs in my house, no worries about leaving stuff in the van? Result.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

Shared ownership of gear isn't worth the hassle. I'd look for any solution other than that even if its one person buys a mixer amp and another buy speaker cabs etc.

 

Also if your instrument isn't amplified by the PA, and you don't use a mic for BVs, the PA is not your problem.

[tauzero]

A few years ago I put together a basic PA when Mrs Zero was the vocalist. I've gradually improved and lightened it over the years. The current band were asking about paying into it but I said it was simpler just to leave it as me owning it, partly because I may do some gigging with Mrs Zero using it (though this is looking less likely as we age).

[Dad3353]

23 minutes ago, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

...Also if your instrument isn't amplified by the PA, and you don't use a mic for BVs, the PA is not your problem.

 

If you stand at the back in the shadows, the lighting rig isn't, either..? 

[Count Bassy]

33 minutes ago, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

Also if your instrument isn't amplified by the PA, and you don't use a mic for BVs, the PA is not your problem.

But can the band function without a PA? If not, and it is more than just the singer through the PA, then it is to everyones benefit to have one, surely. Mind you could could say that about a bass guitar etc.

[TimR]

Depends if its a vocal PA or a 1kW rig.

 

As I say, it's a sunk cost. All pay in and buy it joint and just get an agreement to get it valued I'd anyone leaves and buy them out. 

 

The problem only arises if you spent £1k on a PA for a 5 piece and 2 years later someone wants their £200 back when really its only worth £300 at most. Which is then only a few quid to find from the remaining members. 

[nilebodgers]

This is such a tricky question. If the band owns the PA, who owns the band?

 

If I was ever in a band again (unlikely) and they didn’t already have a PA then I’d probably buy something basic that I owned myself (I already have quite a few mics, DIs and cables). I used to be an audio professional until I retired and it would drive me nuts if someone else was bodging it.

[diskwave]

Template? Its never gonna happen bands are way too dysfunctional for that caper.

Reminds me why I left a very good prog rock band back in 1980. We had a 10K JBL PA, coach, management, a publishing deal etc good gigs great tunes. Then one day the question of a new Soundcraft mixer was floated. A month later they wanted 200 quid from each of us...a huge amount of money back then. So with a heavy heart I left.....Anyway got a CD to remind me of the fun that nearly turned to masses of tears.

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, TimR said:

That's handy because the person leaving will have exactly the missing part you need. So no need to go messing around looking and waiting. Of course you just have to negotiate a price... 😆

 

Which is exactly what I suggest, so why are we arguing (I know you are partial to a barney on here)? 

 

In most cases, the person leaving will probably be happy to sell their piece of gear to the band. If there is no shared ownership, it makes for a clearer transaction - no need to get the whole rig valued, haggle about what would be a fair price, etc, etc. Make him/her an offer. If he/she accepts, fine. If not, get a new mixer or whatever.

 

In my case, I didn't want to sell the gear I owned when I left the band I mention above, as I used it as a starting point to put together my first PA (many years ago now). Instead of having part of the used price of an entire PA (which wouldn't have been a lot), I had a perfectly serviceable Soundcraft mixer and fx rack that I could put to good use.

 

"Who owns all the special cables? That's really going to screw things up when your drummer disappears in a bad mood and takes his cables with him..."

 

The replacement drummer will need to provide his/her own.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Dan Dare

[Dan Dare]

3 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

it can and does happen that there's a willing dad to do the heavy lifting.

 

Agreed. Were my daughter ever to have started a band, I would have been in a position to do it for her, but it's relatively rare and not something one can rely on being the case.

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, nilebodgers said:

I used to be an audio professional until I retired and it would drive me nuts if someone else was bodging it.

 

That's why I decided to get my own PA in the first place. That and the fact that owning a quality PA makes people far more likely to want you in their band.

[Downunderwonder]

3 hours ago, TimR said:

Depends if its a vocal PA or a 1kW rig.

 

As I say, it's a sunk cost. All pay in and buy it joint and just get an agreement to get it valued I'd anyone leaves and buy them out. 

 

The problem only arises if you spent £1k on a PA for a 5 piece and 2 years later someone wants their £200 back when really its only worth £300 at most. Which is then only a few quid to find from the remaining members. 

OP could go that way and have an agreed heavy depreciation schedule.

 

Another way to do it is have the PA as a virtual member of the band. PA gets a half share or something appropriate which goes to the member who takes care of it to cover storing transporting and maintaining. It doesn't cover load in load out and setting the bastard up.

[Gasman]

I think some kind of consensus is emerging here, but I'm too knackered after visiting the three grandchildren tonight to put it into words right now! 

 

I'll have a go tomoz - and thank you everyone for responding - but don't stop yet, there's still time for more input!

[TimR]

4 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

In my case, I didn't want to sell the gear I owned when I left the band I mention above, as I used it as a starting point to put together my first PA (many years ago now). Instead of having part of the used price of an entire PA (which wouldn't have been a lot), I had a perfectly serviceable Soundcraft mixer and fx rack that I could put to good use.

 

Precisely because if this situation occurs the remaining members are left having to find a brand new bit of kit as well as a new band member. 

 

Great for the person jumping ship. Not great for those left behind. 

 

So a document is designed to protect everyone.

 

And the bits don't all cost the same. Eg look at bass gear: a trace elliot Elf amp is £230 and a 2x8" is £400.

[fleabag]

I own the main dual  tower PA  ( subs n tops )  the rhyth git owns the mixer.  We both provide monitors. His desk is old and worth very little compared to my Yam Stagepas pair, but it works just fine.

 

Neither of us ask the other members for any kind of " hire " money.  Of course if we had no PA then the whole band would have to split the cost

of hiring a PA.  If we only put vocals throught the PA, then it's the singers problem to buy or hire a vocal only setup, but in our crew,   bass drum, bass git, rhyth git , keys and 4 vocals all go through, so its every bodies PA, except me and the mixer owner ask nothing for providing it.

 

On the other hand, if either his mixer or my tower Yamahas go down and need repair, i would expect them all to help with repair costs.

 

If i left the band, my towers go with me.

Edited July 15, 2023 by fleabag

[TimR]

5 hours ago, fleabag said:

On the other hand, if either his mixer or my tower Yamahas go down and need repair, i would expect them all to help with repair costs.

 

Has the rest of the band agreed this? Your expectation may not match reality. 

 

The guitarist owns the PA we use, I don't expect to be paying to fix it if any of it requires repair unless I'm personally responsible for breaking it.

[NHM]

I've been lucky with the four-piece band I'm in that the singer owns a decent 'vocals only' PA & monitors and everyone else has good quality kit that they can maintain / upgrade themselves. It's probably a fairly equal financial investment if you break each person's kit down into its original cost. We all travel in our own cars, so there's no shared cost their. We don't have to pay for a rehearsal space.

We've talked about having a 'silent fifth member', so we build up a pot of 20% of each gig's money to cover generic costs like business cards, lights, insurance etc., but so far we've just each divvied in an equal share when costs have arisen. Fortunately it is all very amicable and trustworthy. Long may that last.

[Angelus]

I own our current PA, desk, most of the back line, cables and lights. I also bought a crew cab, ULEZ compliant van for us. 
 

I decided to buy a lot of the equipment a few years ago, but band members said not to and we’d agree a way forward together. I’ve never been a fan of decisions by committee, never had it work out. I don’t just do/buy what I want, I usually discuss it with the band first. I realise this isn’t ideal for a lot of people, or bands, but it’s worked for us. If we were to go our separate ways, it’s a clean split. In my experience, bands splitting isn’t usually a clean process.