Template Agreement for buying, sharing and splitting cost of PA - has anyone got one I could use?

[Woodinblack]

17 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

Let's flip it on its head - "Guitar player seeks band. I will not contribute towards any jointly used equipment or expenses, but I expect to enjoy the benefits of the money the rest of you have spent and be treated as a full partner and receive an equal share of anything the band makes".

 

Guitarist seeks band. I will not contribute to decisions you have made before I joined but will contribute to any equipment that i use when I use it.

 

Doesn't sound too unreasonable to me.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

£600 is peanuts. For a 5 piece band, that equates to a PA that cost £3k, which is a little (but not much) above entry level.

 

wow. Well, maybe one day I will get up to an entry level PA level!

 

17 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

Or would you want to be an equal partner when it came to dividing the spoils? If the latter, you need to make a similar investment as your colleagues. Otherwise, you are expecting a free (or at least subsidised) ride from them.

 

Well, no I don't as the PA is owned by me, so I make a bigger investment than my colleagues. But if we had had the discussion we would still be using a very poor PA that sounded terrible. 

 

But regardless of that, I am not making a similar investment as my colleagues am I? They got to make a decision and decide on something - what happens if that was the wrong decision? I am supposed to pay for a decision I didn't make. Also if it doesn't work out and I leave in 3 months, do I get all my money back, or just some pro-rata amount?

What happens if my PA is better than theirs? Do they pay me to join?

Plus I am the bass player - maybe I don't want to go through the PA, why should I then contribute if I am not using it? 

 

No, honestly it makes no sense to me at all. Perfectly happy in that situation to contribute towards something I am using as I am using it, but no up front costs.

We have different things we think is reasonable - I can't find any way I would find that reasonable, so its not a situation I could ever be in. But as I said, as long as that was an up front discussion before any audition then noone has their time wasted. 

[TimR]

As I say.

 

You now get a valuation on the gear. Probably worth at least 20% less than you paid for it (£2400). And the remaining 4 members pay the guitarist £120 each. £2400/5 is £480. Which is his share. Unless they're reasonable guys and use the original purchase price. 

 

Whatever the arrangement is with the new guitarist is irrelevant. The 'band' doesn't now own the PA, 4/5ths of the band do.

Edited July 17, 2023 by TimR

[Greg Edwards69]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

£600 is peanuts. For a 5 piece band, that equates to a PA that cost £3k, which is a little (but not much) above entry level.

 

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

I'm in a similar position. I've made my money, am comfortably retired and do not need to earn from playing (or anything I do, for that matter). I have all the toys I've ever wanted and, crucially, own my home. I suspect you are in the same position. Relatively few are in our fortunate position. The hippy idyll is not a realistic possibility for most. Life can only be simple if you can afford to make it so, which you and I can.

Please remember your latter statement. What may be peanuts to you may be a couple of months food budget to other people, or maybe their heating over the winter. 
 

not everyone can justify £3k on an “entry level” PA. 

[EssexBuccaneer]

7 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

Then you cannot expect to share in the benefits of that decision.

Let’s say that prior to joining the band, I’ve just dropped several thousand pounds on new gear. The band are going to benefit from my top-tier rig. Would I expect a share of the cost from the band when I join? No.

 

A band is a collective - we work together to create our unique product. We’re not individuals who sell our wares to each other for the benefit of the individual members. 
 

As I say, each to their own, but I’ve never paid to join a band in my life, and I’d not start now.

 

 

[fretmeister]

I prefer a different way.

 

Each member owns a specific bit. 1 person owns the desk, the next the speakers etc. Split as best as possible to keen values similar. Each person responsible for repair, insurance etc of their bit.

[Dan Dare]

6 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

 

Please remember your latter statement. What may be peanuts to you may be a couple of months food budget to other people, or maybe their heating over the winter. 
 

not everyone can justify £3k on an “entry level” PA. 

 

I realise that. I didn't always have money. It's amazing what working for 50 years and not wasting money on frippery can do for the state of one's bank balance...

 

Yes, £3k is very much entry level in PA terms. Add it up. You need some modest but not rubbish powered cabs (say a pair of 15s or a pair of 10s plus a sub, which is what one would need to cover any small to medium sized venue without the system sounding as if it's about to self-destruct, You can go the passive cabs plus power amp route if you want, but the cost will be about the same), a mixing desk with proper eq and onboard fx, monitors (being able to hear yourself does wonders for the ability to remain in tune), some decent microphones and DI boxes (garbage in, garbage out, remember), stands, cables and sundries. Buy new and you'll see little change from £3k unless you buy tat.

 

£600 a head for a band PA is actually something of a bargain. "It's only a hobby", I hear you cry. OK, name a hobby that you can pursue properly for £600 or less. If you have any aspirations to make music into a part or full time occupation, you won't get far if the band sounds like sh1te or nobody can hear what you're all doing, regardless of how good the individual players are.

 

That's the reality.

[Dan Dare]

7 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

I prefer a different way.

 

Each member owns a specific bit. 1 person owns the desk, the next the speakers etc. Split as best as possible to keen values similar. Each person responsible for repair, insurance etc of their bit.

 

Thank you. That was my original point. It doesn't seem to appeal to those who believe someone else should pick up the tab for them.

[Dan Dare]

11 minutes ago, EssexBuccaneer said:

Let’s say that prior to joining the band, I’ve just dropped several thousand pounds on new gear. The band are going to benefit from my top-tier rig. Would I expect a share of the cost from the band when I join? No.

 

A band is a collective - we work together to create our unique product. We’re not individuals who sell our wares to each other for the benefit of the individual members. 
 

As I say, each to their own, but I’ve never paid to join a band in my life, and I’d not start now.

 

Every member of that band will have spent good money on quality gear for their own individual use. That's just the way it is. Have you seen how much quality guitars and guitar rigs cost? Keys? Saxes and wind instruments?

 

We're talking about buying equipment that the band needs as a whole to function. It won't matter how good you are as individuals if nobody can hear what the band is doing, the singer is singing, etc. That's where a PA comes in.

 

If your band is truly a "collective" and you are not "individuals", then you will share the cost of what you need to function properly as a unit. Unless you want to flip flop between being part of a collective and an individual depending on which best suits your pocket, of course...

[EssexBuccaneer]

5 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

Every member of that band will have spent good money on quality gear for their own individual use. That's just the way it is. Have you seen how much quality guitars and guitar rigs cost? Keys? Saxes and wind instruments?

 

We're talking about buying equipment that the band needs as a whole to function. It won't matter how good you are as individuals if nobody can hear what the band is doing, the singer is singing, etc. That's where a PA comes in.

 

If your band is truly a "collective" and you are not "individuals", then you will share the cost of what you need to function properly as a unit. Unless you want to flip flop between being part of a collective and an individual depending on which best suits your pocket, of course...

And once I’m a member I take on that responsibility happily, and pay my equal share as part of the band collective. 
 

But once again, decisions made prior to me joining are not my responsibility.

 

Would I pay my continued share of upkeep for the PA? Yeah, course. Would I pay upfront for a share of the product that I didn’t buy, nor have any say over? No.

I don’t think my position is particularly controversial, nor unusual. In fact, I’ve never heard of a band member being asked to stump up their share of equipment prior to joining. Ever.

 

[Dan Dare]

7 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

1. What happens if my PA is better than theirs? Do they pay me to join?

 

2. Plus I am the bass player - maybe I don't want to go through the PA, why should I then contribute if I am not using it? 

 

1. That's the position I'm in. People like us have two options We can tell the band:

 

a) "I won't contribute to your jointly-owned PA. I own a better one, which I'm happy for us to use provided you pay me a (reasonable) fee to use it". Or:

 

b) "I am happy to provide my mixing desk, FOH or whatever to use with the rest of your PA as my contribution to it". That's the advantage of my original suggestion - that band members should own parts of the PA as individuals. It's simple to replace whatever piece of jointly-used gear the departing band member takes with them.

 

If they don't want to go with either of those options, that's fair enough. They can look for another bass player.

 

2. And the guitar player is the guitar player, the keys player is the keys player and so on. They may not "go through the PA", but the PA is needed to ensure the band as a whole can function and be heard properly. You won't get many gigs if that isn't the case or the band sounds terrible.

 

You pays yer money and takes yer choice.

[Dan Dare]

12 minutes ago, EssexBuccaneer said:

And once I’m a member I take on that responsibility happily, and pay my equal share as part of the band collective. 
 

But once again, decisions made prior to me joining are not my responsibility.

 

Would I pay my continued share of upkeep for the PA? Yeah, course. Would I pay upfront for a share of the product that I didn’t buy, nor have any say over? No.

I don’t think my position is particularly controversial, nor unusual. In fact, I’ve never heard of a band member being asked to stump up their share of equipment prior to joining. Ever.

 

 

You are paying to become a part owner of jointly-used gear. It can be done via deductions from gig fees, rather than as a "joining fee".

 

Not your responsibility? OK. Consider this. Band works and spends money to achieve a following, create a good sound, etc. Then their bass player departs for pastures new. His ex-colleagues pay him out his share of the jointly-owned PA. You come along and say "I'd like to join". You audition and they say "Great. You're in if you want it. We have a jointly owned PA which is essential to the band's sound. Would you mind contributing as an equal member to its cost? The contribution will be its value at present, not what it cost us when new".

 

You reply, "No way, man. This is, like, meant to be a collective. I expect to benefit from the work you've already done and the money you've already spent without contributing myself".

 

Yeah. Good luck with that.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Dan Dare

[EssexBuccaneer]

Just now, Dan Dare said:

 

You are paying to become a part owner of jointly-used gear. It can be done via deductions from gig fees, rather than as a "joining fee".

 

Not your responsibility? OK. Consider this. Band works and spends money to achieve a following, create a good sound, etc. Then their bass player departs for pastures new. His ex-colleagues pay him out his share of the jopintly-owned PA. You come along and say "I'd like to join". You audition and they say "Great. You're in if you want it. We have a jointly owned PA which is essential to the band's sound. Would you mind contributing as an equal member to its cost? The contribution will be its value at present, not what it cost us when new".

 

You reply, "No way, man. This is, like, meant to be a collective. I expect to benefit from the work you've already done and the money you've already spent without contributing myself".

 

Yeah. Good luck with that.

Hey, like I say. I’ve never come across a band that expected payment for equipment bought prior to them joining, and you might think I’m the a-hole for not doing it, but that’s the bottom line. 
 

Maybe you’ll find someone with enough cash to throw around on a project that they’re willing to commit to stumping up the cost of a mid-range instrument on a band before they’ve even played a gig with them, horses for courses eh? 
 

In my band we’re looking at getting a PA shortly. I’ll chip in my share and I’ll assist equally with the upkeep - but if I leave I’ll expect no share back. It’s a sunk expense as far as I’m concerned.

[Jack]

Add me to the "giving £600 to some strangers I met down the pub in the hope I'll get some gigs soon seems like a bad idea" camp.

[MGBrown]

Has anyone on here ever paid money up front to join a band? 

 

 

[Jack]

14 minutes ago, MGBrown said:

Has anyone on here ever paid money up front to join a band? 

 

 

I have not.

 

Firstly, in this particular case it seems like FNG would be expected to pay new prices for what is to them a second hand pa system.

 

Secondly, as a more general point, is this new person expected to cough up for the business cards that were bought last month? The rehearsal rooms that were used last November? The sponsored Facebook posts that were bought last year? All of these things have benefited the band before the new person has joined, and the new person will be receiving some benefit from them.

 

Thirdly, OP, if you are going to expect this of someone, mention it EARLY. I'd be more than a little angry to, say, spend time on my evenings learning 5 songs, driving to a rehearsal room and spend an hour playing to only then be told that you're expecting me to pay for the mortgage you took out in 1992 because the band once had a party in your house 3 years before I joined.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Jack

[Jack]

Meant to edit, quoted instead. Move along folks

Edited July 18, 2023 by Jack

[Greg Edwards69]

What if you're in more than one band, or looking to join another, and you've got own the wrong part of the PA for the band? 

 

Heck, join enough bands and every member of every band will each own a complete PA system!

[NHM]

So, to go back to the start of this thread, the OP was asking for a template. It seems to me that most people here accept there are likely to be joint costs/assets for a band (i.e. a PA but other things too like insurance, business cards etc. (although the PA may be down to the vocalist(s) alone)) and recognise the need invest in equipment purchases and maintenance. For a new band any purchase needs to be pump-primed, either with some or all the members chipping in up front, before the first chord is stuck.

I suggest (for the start of a template) that:

 

·       Once the band membership is established, make an agreement how the various items of gear will be provided up front. (You may not need gear initially if you rehearse at studios so purchase decisions could be deferred until you’re ready to gig).

·       Regarding the PA, the first question to ask is, should the band own it or just those that use it?

·       Then you need to consider how to manage your money going forward. For example, a portion of each gig’s money is set aside to build up a pot to pay for ongoing maintenance, upgrades, annual fees etc. And/or members pay a small sub per rehearsal, to build up the pot asap. A sub isn’t unreasonable as most activities require some sort of ongoing membership fee. It could be that if an individual(s) funded the PA then the pot pays them back so the item is fully owned by the band, if that’s what the band wants.

·       As the band grows so does the pot and if there is reasonable planning and agreement to ensure money is set aside for potential costs an annual divi could be paid to members from the remainder.

·       Anyone leaving the band could take their share of the pot but should know from the outset that the assets belong to the band and/or individuals and they can’t expect any ‘buy out’ payment.

·       A newcomer to the band doesn’t make any up-front contribution other than providing their own personal instrument/gear, but then contributes like any other band member.

·       If the band splits and sells the assets, then this is equally divided between the line up at the point of the split.

 

It’s best to be open and upfront about how the band money is structured and having a collective agreement to me seems vital if the band is to avoid unnecessary disagreements at a later point. Every band’s circumstances will differ, as will the attitudes and access to money from its members, so any agreement will be personalised to your circumstances. But the important thing is to be agreed, open and upfront about how the money side works. Having a What’sApp group is a good way to present proposals to other band members and to get their approval (in writing) before any money is spent. While you might all think your are mates, money can have a nasty way of turning on you unless things are formally agreed.

Just my tupenneth!

[Woodinblack]

4 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

2. And the guitar player is the guitar player, the keys player is the keys player and so on. They may not "go through the PA", but the PA is needed to ensure the band as a whole can function and be heard properly. You won't get many gigs if that isn't the case or the band sounds terrible.

 

Yeh, but the band also needs the £2/3k keyboard rack the keyboard player entirely owns, and the band needs the £2k bass and bass rig the bass player entirely owns, the £2-3k guitars the guitarist has soley paid for and all the drums that the drummer entirely owns. So does the singer with his £100 mic also contribute to those?

[Dad3353]

In many bands, there' a band leader. He/she will have set up the PA needs, Splitter van maybe, web-site costs, flyer/poster printing (sometimes even costumes/stage dress...). He/she will have the finances sorted as to who gets what, either as a fixed sum for turning up and playing, or a split of the gig money; all of this will be known to all in the band, and any that will join. It's only really an 'issue' if the band is set up on a 'mates' basis, with some sort of 'democracy' (or 'anarchy'...) in place. In such a case, there's no 'right' nor 'wrong'; each collective will have its own way of sorting out issues, with a punch-up in the car park as a 'last resort' option. How other bands do stuff is academically interesting, but each group has to find its own modus operandi, preferably before the punching starts. 

[pete.young]

4 hours ago, MGBrown said:

Has anyone on here ever paid money up front to join a band? 

 

 

My subscription to Woodbridge Excelsior is £10/month. It's quite normal in brass band / orchestral circles.

[Greg Edwards69]

16 minutes ago, pete.young said:

My subscription to Woodbridge Excelsior is £10/month. It's quite normal in brass band / orchestral circles.

I played clarinet and sax in my youth in orchestras. My subs payment went towards running costs such as sheet music and rehearsal space hire. I wouldn't expect to pay for somebody else's equipment, however.

[Greg Edwards69]

5 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

You reply, "No way, man. This is, like, meant to be a collective. I expect to benefit from the work you've already done and the money you've already spent without contributing myself".

As an aside. IIRC, Metallica gave $1m to Robert Trujillo for joining the band.

[Woodinblack]

3 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

As an aside. IIRC, Metallica gave $1m to Robert Trujillo for joining the band.

 

How much did he have to pay for the PA?

 

[TimR]

55 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

How much did he have to pay for the PA?

 

Metallica now only use a PA and drum kit. All the amps are for show as they use AmpSimms.