Help identifying this potentially old Fender P-FrankenBass

[Ritsugamesh]

Hi guys, 

 

Looking for a bit of help/guidance/advice here regarding a fretless P-bass my dad has had for donkeys years and by osmosis came to be in my collection. As far as we're both aware, it's a mid/late-70's P-Bass, original body and neck, and that's about as far as the knowledge goes. If anyone is good at dating serial numbers do chime up! 

 

The main point of contention is how many mods have actually been made to the bass itself. From what I can tell, it looks like it was not originally fretless. If you look carefully at the underside of what I think is an ebony fretboard -It's incredibly dark and doesn't feel like typical rosewood to me - you can see what looks like filled-in fret markers, especially at the 12th fret. The bass has a skunk stripe too, which I was always led to believe meant it would likely have a maple one-piece neck. My dad thinks it's always been a fretless, I'm just not buying it. 

 

The active electronics are 100% not original, nor is the bridge and what looks like a strange silver foil shielding job? Any insights here appreciated! I believe the J pickup has been routed out specifically to add these pickups, relatively professionally if I do say so myself, and either side of the bridge are these odd circle pin things that I'm assuming were put there after an ashtray was removed from the original. 

 

 

I'm considering whether I should try to restore as much of the bass to original if possible, what people's recommendations would be to go about that r.e. pickup selections and whether to refret it (if anyone knows any good luthiers in the midlands that could handle such a job I would be appreciative!). I think it's a gorgeous instrument let down a bit by lack of care from the previous owner before us - no mods were done by myself or my dad, it is as we received. 

 

Cheers!

[SurroundedByManatees]

It actually seems like a whole new fretboard has been applied. Personally, in this case, I wouldn't go the way of semi-restoring and take this bass as it is as long as sound and playability are good.

 

Seems like a great bass; cool looks with a nice grain in the wood, EMG

Edited July 14, 2023 by SurroundedByManatees

[Doctor J]

S8 serial is anywhere from 78 to early 80's. The hole the bridge pickup is sitting in is not original, so I wouldn't get too caught up in returning it to original state. That ship has sailed.

 

If it were me, the neck dot situation would do my head in, so I'd be looking at getting the fretboard replaced, a new one fretted so the original dots are in the right place, get them refilled with black dots and I'd keep the bridge and the EMGs. They're better than what it left the factory with, IMO of course 🙂

[Ritsugamesh]

7 minutes ago, SurroundedByManatees said:

It actually seems like a whole new fretboard has been applied. Personally, in this case, I wouldn't go the way of semi-restoring and take this bass as it is as long as sound and playability are good.

 

Seems like a great bass; cool looks with a nice grain in the wood, EMG

That is the assumption I have made - it's a really really thick slab of ebony that's been put over the top of the neck and the fret marker situation definitely irks me! Sounds cool and plays well as far as I can tell, though I'm not really a fretless player. 

 

8 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

S8 serial is anywhere from 78 to early 80's. The hole the bridge pickup is sitting in is not original, so I wouldn't get too caught up in returning it to original state. That ship has sailed.

 

If it were me, the neck dot situation would do my head in, so I'd be looking at getting the fretboard replaced, a new one fretted so the original dots are in the right place, get them refilled with black dots and I'd keep the bridge and the EMGs. They're better than what it left the factory with, IMO of course 🙂

 

Good to know r.e. the serial, he said previous owner told him 78 so that tracks. The fet marker situation is definitely giving me some conniptions, but it does seem like a real quality fretboard so inclined to accept the jank and refret, I also find it a little tricky to intonate and I wager that's down to a) me being a crap fretless player and b) because the scale length has potentially changed between the bridge swap. 

I'm tempted at the very least to return it back to a passive instrument befitting it's vintage more, and the nut needs repairing on the low E side, though it isn't affecting playability at the moment (possibly thanks to being fretless?) 

 

Thanks for the input so far guys! 

[BigRedX]

Looks like the new fingerboard has been applied directly over the original one-piece maple neck. I suspect that the finish has worn away from the original fingerboard, and for some reason this was the desired method of fixing it. 

[Reggaebass]

I think it’s been altered too much for you to put it back as original, S8 is 78 sometimes up to 81, really nice looking fretboard there, I’d be inclined to get it fretted (I don’t play fretless) and have the electrics you like, I’d remove those chrome caps at the bridge too, not an expensive project to get it how you want and it’s a very nice bass 

[miles'tone]

The dot positions on the new fingerboard have been changed to accommodate the badass bridge. I'd be tempted to replace the fingerboard and put an original 70s bbot bridge back on myself (I prefer the woodier tone of a normal bridge).

I'd keep it fretless but whatever floats your boat.

Nice bass!

 

Edit... looked again and the saddles look all over the shop regarding intonation so gawd knows why the dots don't line up 🤷

Edited July 14, 2023 by miles'tone

[NikNik]

I like that 'board. Looks like ebony, possibly even ebonol.

[Ritsugamesh]

20 hours ago, miles'tone said:

The dot positions on the new fingerboard have been changed to accommodate the badass bridge. I'd be tempted to replace the fingerboard and put an original 70s bbot bridge back on myself (I prefer the woodier tone of a normal bridge).

I'd keep it fretless but whatever floats your boat.

Nice bass!

 

Edit... looked again and the saddles look all over the shop regarding intonation so gawd knows why the dots don't line up 🤷

 

I can attest that intonating this bass has been an absolute p***take - hence the mangled looking saddle placement. I'm in agreement that the adjusted fret markers must be to account for the positioning of the larger bridge, I'll take some measurements tomorrow when I'm back to see whether it's properly set at a 34" scale length or not. It seems to be the G that is having the most trouble, i.e. if it's intonated at the 12th it's out elsewhere, none of the other strings seem to be having the same issue and the neck isn't warped, so not entirely sure what the crack is there! 

 

20 hours ago, Reggaebass said:

I think it’s been altered too much for you to put it back as original, S8 is 78 sometimes up to 81, really nice looking fretboard there, I’d be inclined to get it fretted (I don’t play fretless) and have the electrics you like, I’d remove those chrome caps at the bridge too, not an expensive project to get it how you want and it’s a very nice bass 

 

I think this is the long-term plan, I am not really a fretless player either and those chrome caps are just gaudy to my eyes. Not sure if I could git an ashtray over the badass bridge either, but we shall cross that road when we come to it. 

[3below]

I experienced a bass that would not intonate and played out of tune when the 12th fret intonation was correct. The cause was a faulty G string, from new. It took a while to find this, the first faulty string I have encountered in 50+ years of playing. I would keep it as it is, it looks like a really nice example, good upgrades and big bonus, an ebony fretless board. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by 3below

[BassBunny]

On 14/07/2023 at 14:00, Ritsugamesh said:

I'm tempted at the very least to it back to a passive instrument befitting it's vintage more, and the nut needs repairing on the low E side, though it isn't affecting playability at the moment (possibly thanks to being fretless?)

If you plan to go passive it might mean new pickups as those EMG's could be active.

That said the pickups plus the preamp are pretty saleable to offset the cost.

[Ritsugamesh]

23 hours ago, 3below said:

I experienced a bass that would not intonate and played out of tune when the 12th fret intonation was correct. The cause was a faulty G string, from new. It took a while to find this, the first faulty string I have encountered in 50+ years of playing. I would keep it as it is, it looks like a really nice example, good upgrades and big bonus, an ebony fretless board. 

 

Will check that out - it's never had a string change since we've owned it, so some very funked out flats as it is. I have heard of this happening before, but haven't experienced personally.

 

21 hours ago, BassBunny said:

If you plan to go passive it might mean new pickups as those EMG's could be active.

That said the pickups plus the preamp are pretty saleable to offset the cost.

 

They are indeed active, I believe the battery is housed beneath the pickguard cover but haven't had time to take it all apart and review. To be honest, given that getting it back to vintage is unlikely, tempted to just get some nicer looking control knobs and leave it at that. The plastic black ones don't really do it for me!

[velvetkevorkian]

I quite like that as it is, I'd be inclined to leave it as is. Fretting that board could be painful if there are any discrepancies between the markings and the actual fret positions...

[DGBass]

I owned a Fender bass with an S88xxxx serial number and it was a 1978 so odds on its a 78 or 79 you have. The neck heel might help narrow it down as it likely has a date stamp. The sunburst finish is consistent with those times. The fingerboard doesn't look original but fender did make fretless versions with both maple and rosewood boards at that time. I would guess you have a standard usa fender 78/79 with added routing for the Jazz pickup and emg electronics added at a later date. The fingerboard is also probably aftermarket but looks well done. I'd be inclined to keep it as is if it plays well and sounds fine. The nut obviously needs attention and maybe the foil job but thats a small amount of work required for what could be a fantastic players bass. Nice one.

[atsampson]

That configuration reminds me of Mo Foster's Jazz and Precision. It does seem a bit of a shame to refret it if the neck's otherwise in good condition - there are plenty of fretted Precisions out there already...

[3below]

Looking at the images again, if the neck dots (not the fingerboard ones) 'offend' you too much I am sure a skilled furniture restorer or suitable luthier would be able to sort them out to the point of virtual invisibility.  As said many times, it is a nice bass, I would be more than happy with it in my bass fleet.

[EMG456]

On 14/07/2023 at 13:35, Ritsugamesh said:

I'm considering whether I should try to restore as much of the bass to original if possible, what people's recommendations would be to go about that r.e. pickup selections and whether to refret it (if anyone knows any good luthiers in the midlands that could handle such a job I would be appreciative!). I think it's a gorgeous instrument let down a bit by lack of care from the previous owner before us - no mods were done by myself or my dad, it is as we received. 

 

I'm late as usual...

 

That's a lovely thing. Contrary to what you have suggested, it looks to me as if a previous owner has lavished a *lot* of care on this bass.

 

As it stands, you have something way better than a stock fretless precision. The active circuit probably adds to it's versatility but if you don't want that, the EMGs will work perfectly well with a passive circuit - just make sure the pot values are correct.

 

If it was me - new nut and strings and a careful setup. I wouldn't mess up that lovely board by having it fretted!

 

If you feel that you're not great with fretless then let this be the start of your great fretless journey.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Baloney Balderdash]

Leave it alone as it is! (well except for having a new nut cut obviously)

 

You are not going to restore that to it's original state, as you then might as well just buy a similar bass that hasn't been modded.

 

Enjoy this bass for what it is, or sell it to some who would appreciate the work done on it, seems like an absolute killer bass, and to be frank a vast improvement over the original.

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Ritsugamesh]

4 hours ago, EMG456 said:

 

I'm late as usual...

 

That's a lovely thing. Contrary to what you have suggested, it looks to me as if a previous owner has lavished a *lot* of care on this bass.

 

As it stands, you have something way better than a stock fretless precision. The active circuit probably adds to it's versatility but if you don't want that, the EMGs will work perfectly well with a passive circuit - just make sure the pot values are correct.

 

If it was me - new nut and strings and a careful setup. I wouldn't mess up that lovely board by having it fretted!

 

If you feel that you're not great with fretless then let this be the start of your great fretless journey.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

Thank you for the alternative perspective. I'm perhaps being too critical, simply from the shield job being visible and the fret marker situation, but otherwise it is a series of well-done modifications. 

 

I'm more in the mind to keep things as-is, though I'll be taking the neck off and electronics to see whether there is more information to be shared. 

 

What nut would you suggests as a replacement? I believe this must be a bone nut, but I've never actually replaced one before! 

 

3 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Leave it alone as it is! (well except for having a new nut cut obviously)

 

You are not going to restore that to it's original state, as you then might as well just buy a similar bass that hasn't been modded.

 

Enjoy this bass for what it is, or sell it to some who would appreciate the work done on it, seems like an absolute killer bass, and to be frank a vast improvement over the original.

 

 

Appreciate the feedback, leaning this way for sure, it's had a lot of work and a lot of character as a result. Might change the control knobs though, not a fan of the plastic ones!

[Velarian]

The neck on this bass is similar to my '77 P Bass which was originally a one-piece maple (with a skunk stripe). For reasons I cannot fathom now, back in 1984 I had it turned into a fretless with an ebony finger board. At the time this work was done, it had an identical Badass II bridge to yours. There was no change to scale length, the position dots remained in the same place and everything intonates as it should. I've added some pictures below for comparison.

 

I'm a long way short of being an expert in these matters but what strikes me as being odd about your neck is how thick the fingerboard is compared to mine and I wonder if this contributes to the intonation issues? If the Badass bridge doesn't impact on the scale length (and as far as I'm aware it shouldn't as this was a common replacement for many P Basses), then the 12th fret position marker should be exactly 17" from the face of the nut. On mine it is, but judging from the original position markers on your pictures it looks to be a few mil further along, which doesn't seem right. I think it would be worth getting a luthier to take a look at this as they may be able to tweak things.

 

As others have mentioned I don't think I'd entertain the idea of returning it to original. The extra pick-up route has been done very well and everything else looks to be quality kit. If you were set on having a fretted neck I'd be inclined to source a Fender licensed replacement neck and use that - these can often be picked up on eBay for £100 or so (this is what I should have done before having mine made fretless as I would have still had the neck in original condition). 

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Velarian

[Ritsugamesh]

Thanks for posting those pics Valerian - very similar looking neck to mine for sure, ebony slab thickness withstanding! 

 

I've taken the time today to pull it apart for a brief look and review scale lengths, etc.

 

 

Scale length appears to be absolutely bang on from the end of the nut to the bridge saddles. The G string being a pain to intonate must be either related to the nut at this point or the string itself being old and done in. I will look at changing at the very least the G to check whether this is the case. 

 

I've also taken the neck off and pickguard off to get a bit more information about the actual parts in use! Some very interesting insights for sure, at least I think so 😁

 

 

The neck has this code on the bottom - I have done a bit of googling to figure this one out and I believe it's 01 (precision) 02 (no clue) 36 (36th week) 9 (79) 3 (weds) - the 02 I have no clue, but I think the rest is correct. Anyone with better info let me know! 

 

The stuff on the back of the neck eludes me, although googling J Torres brings up a fair few results about him being a well-regarded neck builder of the era. The sticker I have absolutely no idea what that's about, but assuming original. Also not sure what the stamp codes mean, so any englightenment is appreciated! 

 

All the internals look well done, though I honestly have such poor knowledge of electrical work on my instruments it just looked like a mass of cables to me. Anyone with better knowledge please chime up! Not sure what dates these EMGs are either. 

 

 

The silver foil job appears to be as from the factory, suggesting this is also the original pickguard. I've never seen a silver foil on a bass before from Fender, but the serial number sticker on the underside suggests it is indeed how it was done in the factory. Last but not least is a sticker with F 1-23 written inside the pickup cavity - again, absolutely no idea. 

 

 

 

The buttons are removable, one I've got out and the other is providing difficult. Even with big holes in the body it looks a damn sight better than whatever those metal buttons were, so I'll take it. At this point I'm likely to buy a fretted replacement neck to avoid doing any major work to this one, the neck pocket is 2.5" by 3.8" or so, which I believe is relatively standard for a Precision neck? 

 

Hope the guts and glory photos are of interest guys, thank you for all the comments so far - very illuminating for both me and my father! 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Ritsugamesh

[Velarian]

So, your fret position markers are spot on which is good. It does beg the question why the original position markers were where they are though.

 

I believe that the G string is what determines the scale length so really the break point of the G string saddle should be set at 34” and tweaked for intonation from there, with the lower strings correspondingly further back. Have you tried that at 34”? (Others may correct me if I’m wrong!).

 

Regarding the fingerboard thickness, I’m guessing that more material may have been planed off the neck than mine when it was modified so the extra thickness makes up the difference. 

[ezbass]

1 hour ago, Ritsugamesh said:

whatever those metal buttons were,

They look suspiciously like mirror screws with caps.

[Sparky Mark]

Apologies, I may have missed this information in the earlier posts; when open tuned to the correct pitch and you play the strings exactly on the 12th fret mark position is the note flat or sharp? I'm assuming the bridge saddles don't have enough travel to correct any variance?

[Ritsugamesh]

4 hours ago, Sparky Mark said:

Apologies, I may have missed this information in the earlier posts; when open tuned to the correct pitch and you play the strings exactly on the 12th fret mark position is the note flat or sharp? I'm assuming the bridge saddles don't have enough travel to correct any variance?

 

The G string will be accurate at the 12th and about 50c flat on frets below the 12th. The inverse occurs above the 12th. It's only the G string that is struggling to intonate, the other 3 are fine, which suggests scale length isn't the issue. 

 

It's seemingly impossible to have the lower frets tuned to pitch and still have it accurate to the 12th. 

 

Going to try and put another string on to see if that fixes the issue. Any additional troubleshooting tips welcome!