Thoughts needed on pre-amp / power amp rigs vs a head

[Nickthebass]

I'm looking for thoughts, recommendations, pros and cons of moving to a pre-amp / power amp rig rather than a head.

 

I have a small pedal board based around an Origin Effects BassRig SV to get "my sound" which is sent to both the front of house and back-line. I'm currently running a pair of Barefaced cabs powered by either an Ashdown ABM600 or a GB Streamliner 900 but I'm considering replacing the head(s) with a power amp and a graphic EQ (or similar).

 

The back-line rack would only need to deal with volume and the oddities of the room. The pedal board deals with tone shaping, compression, drive and all that. I'm giving FOH a "finished" sound for them to balance / tweak to the room and mix and want to do the same with my back line.

 

Someone in BC land has probably been down this (or a similar road) before but it would be totally new to me. Any thoughts on power-amps to check out (or avoid), similarly rack-mount EQs (or similar) as well as any big compromises / issues that people have bumped into? 

 

[BassmanPaul]

Personally considering the amps you already own I would just go with what you have.  If you don't want the amplifier's pre-amps contribution to your overall sound then just plug your effects into the Return jack.

 

[Nickthebass]

10 minutes ago, BassmanPaul said:

Personally considering the amps you already own I would just go with what you have.  If you don't want the amplifier's pre-amps contribution to your overall sound then just plug your effects into the Return jack.

 

Yup - that is an option. To be honest it just feels like over kill. Also the both the heads have a distinct sound of their own - especially the GB unit.
 

If I go into the effects return then (from looking at the Ashdown manual) I’d be bypassing the EQ section and going straight which I don’t want to do. I’m looking to go from the pedal board to a “room tuning” EQ section and then to a power amp. 

[jrixn1]

4 hours ago, Nickthebass said:

The back-line rack would only need to deal with volume and the oddities of the room. The pedal board deals with tone shaping, compression, drive and all that. I'm giving FOH a "finished" sound for them to balance / tweak to the room and mix and want to do the same with my back line.

 

Which Barefaced cabs do you have, and what type of venues are you playing?

 

I have a pedalboard setup into an active PA speaker for my stage monitoring, and the same signal DIed to FOH.  I used to have that extra step where I could tweak my EQ independently of FOH but I never really used it, so got rid of it and don't miss it - I credit the active speakers in giving me a consistent on-stage sound, which I never previously had with traditional bass cabs.

 

I do sometimes make small EQ tweaks during soundcheck from venue to venue, and so yes those will go to FOH - but as you say, FOH make their own balances and tweaks on top anyway.  I'm not sure there's any value to anyone to be sending literally exactly the same unaltered tone from one venue to the next.

[Nickthebass]

52 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

 

Which Barefaced cabs do you have, and what type of venues are you playing?

 

I have a pedalboard setup into an active PA speaker for my stage monitoring, and the same signal DIed to FOH.  I used to have that extra step where I could tweak my EQ independently of FOH but I never really used it, so got rid of it and don't miss it - I credit the active speakers in giving me a consistent on-stage sound, which I never previously had with traditional bass cabs.

 

I do sometimes make small EQ tweaks during soundcheck from venue to venue, and so yes those will go to FOH - but as you say, FOH make their own balances and tweaks on top anyway.  I'm not sure there's any value to anyone to be sending literally exactly the same unaltered tone from one venue to the next.

A Midget T and a Compact.

 

I’m playing a mix of places. Some I have to cover the room from the backline, others the backline is for onstage only. Potentially also some in-house backline.

 

It sounds like you’re doing pretty much what I have in mind. Did you ever do it with a power amp and passive speakers? What was the additional EQ stage that you were using?

[BassmanPaul]

I use a 2KW capable Class D Stereo power amp as the backbone of my bass rig. I built a tube pre-amp to drive it and if required FOH. In its four space SKB case I can easily lift it with two fingers. .

 

What you're suggesting is, in my mind, overkill. That said to each his/her own.

[jrixn1]

1 hour ago, Nickthebass said:

Did you ever do it with a power amp and passive speakers? What was the additional EQ stage that you were using?

 

I've not had a setup based around a power amp, but for a while I was using a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.2 and a Barefaced Big Baby 2.  It was a flat setup (Shuttle is flat with the EQ set neutrally), and I used the DI in pre-EQ mode so that any EQ was just for the stage.

 

When I switched to powered speakers, I had an MXR M81, a clean DI which I used similarly in pre-EQ mode.

 

Is there a reason you want rack gear?  It's large and heavy...

Edited July 24, 2023 by jrixn1

[Nickthebass]

11 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

 

I've not had a setup based around a power amp, but for a while I was using a Genz Benz Shuttle 9.2 and a Barefaced Big Baby 2.  It was a flat setup (Shuttle is flat with the EQ set neutrally), and I used the DI in pre-EQ mode so that any EQ was just for the stage.

 

When I switched to powered speakers, I had an MXR M81, a clean DI which I used similarly in pre-EQ mode.

 

Is there a reason you want rack gear?  It's large and heavy...

I’m using “rack” as a short hand for a separate pre-amp and power amp driving the backline speakers.

 

I could just use a head and run into the effects return with another EQ after the BassRig but I’m trying to get some ideas and feedback from others who have been down this road.

 

Did you use the Shuttle because that’s just what you had to hand or was it a deliberate decision?

[Nickthebass]

11 hours ago, BassmanPaul said:

I use a 2KW capable Class D Stereo power amp as the backbone of my bass rig. I built a tube pre-amp to drive it and if required FOH. In its four space SKB case I can easily lift it with two fingers. .

 

What you're suggesting is, in my mind, overkill. That said to each his/her own.

What power amp were you using? Are you still running this rig? If not - why not? 
 

I probably would look for a solid state pre-amp but it sounds like you are / we’re doing exactly what I have in mind. 

[jrixn1]

55 minutes ago, Nickthebass said:

Did you use the Shuttle because that’s just what you had to hand or was it a deliberate decision?

 

Before the Shuttle + Big Baby 2, in fact I too had a Streamliner + Barefaced Compact (but no Midget T or any other second speaker with a tweeter), which sounded quite good for some specific things (Motown) but not so great for others.  There was basically no high end - turning the high EQ either way made pretty much no difference.

 

I was happy with the Genz Benz brand and quality, and a friend happened to be selling the Shuttle + Big Baby 2, so I just moved on that.  So it was not a deliberate decision - but a great discovery that all my tone could come from a pedalboard and that the amp and cab could function specifically just to make it louder, transparently.

 

Then after a while I moved to powered speakers (RCF 732A, QSC K12, etc) and never looked back; the additional advantages are that the power amp and speaker are matched, better dispersion, all the benefits of DSP, built-in wedge option, more compact to transport and store.

[la bam]

I think you just need to decide what from your gear is the sound you want. 

 

If it's the sv pedal then send one send from that to FOH and another send to your rig. 

 

My own preference would be to just plug direct into the abm and get it as flat and unflavoured as possible. It's only for your pleasure as the main bass sound is from the pedal and foh.

 

If it helps, the best amp I had for this type of set up was the quilter bb800. Pretty much uncoloured so it gives you your preamp pedal sound but with lovely eq for those stage corrections. Light as a feather too. I've used the 'proper' pa amp method before and to be honest really didnt like it. Whereas the bb800 is made for it.

Edited July 25, 2023 by la bam

[BassmanPaul]

On 25/07/2023 at 04:13, Nickthebass said:

What power amp were you using? Are you still running this rig? If not - why not? 
 

I probably would look for a solid state pre-amp but it sounds like you are / we’re doing exactly what I have in mind. 

 

My power amp was made by a company called Carvin here in North America. They also built my six string basses and I built a five string from their parts.  Unfortunately there seemed to be a squabble with in the owners family after he passed away. The company is pretty much gone now. 

 

The reason I went tubes was that I like designing with them.. They were current technology when I went to school.  That was a few years ago!

Edited July 29, 2023 by BassmanPaul

[Dan Dare]

On 25/07/2023 at 18:43, BassmanPaul said:

My power lamp was made by a company called Carvin here in North America. They also built my six string basses and I built a five string from their parts. Unfortunately there seemed to be a squabble with in the owners family after he passed away. The company is pretty much gone now. 

 

Carvin appears to have re-launched. There is a current website. I don't know whether someone may have bought the rights to use the name/brand or whether the original firm is back in operation. I have a B1000 bass head which I like very much.

[WinterMute]

I used a Crown XLS1500 bridged into mono with a Series 1 Big Twin for a long time, and monstrous it was too, I varied the pre-amp a bit, the Line6 Pod XT Pro rack gave way to a Geddy Lee 2112 then back to modelling with an XT Stomp.

 

Once I stopped gigging, I moved it on as I really don't have space in the studio, and now I have a QSC K12.2 and a Quad Cortex, largely for rehearsal prior to recording.

 

The XLS/Big Twin combination was easily the best stage rig I've ever owned, particularly while using the Pod XT, if I ever went back to gigging I'd grab a BT3 and a Crown XLS in a heartbeat.

 

 

[3below]

SansAmp RB-1 (or sometimes SansAmp Leeds pedal) > Crown XLS 1502 single channel> BF Dusbster.  Seems to be adequate, I use a 35Hz high pass filter with the XLS 1502 DSP. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by 3below

[BassmanPaul]

I won't deal with Carvin in any guise now. When they closed the company they basically voided all the warrantees I had on the stuff I had bought from them. I had bought a lot of stuff! Luckily none of the equipment has failed me.

 

Edited July 29, 2023 by BassmanPaul

[Phil Starr]

You've gathered by now that the Crown 1502 is the go to for this sort of set up. More power than you'll ever need and the DSP means you can set power limits and have 24db/8ve HPF saving you the cost of a Thumpinator. Reliability comes as standard though to be fair most PA power amps are reliable, even Behringer if you are on a budget. You can also go stereo or run a mix of cabs with a proper crossover to get the sound you want.

 

I wonder if you are going through the PA why you want to have a lot of sound on stage which you will feed into the vocal mics (to be fair maybe you don't, I'm probably reading too much into this) If the PA is what the audience hear then all you need on stage is monitoring, preferably pointing away from the mics.

 

The other factor is that taking a graphic to create your sound is a great choice but could be overkill too. The biggest problem on most stages is too much bottom end. If your speaker is up against any hard surface (floor or rear wall) then you'll get a 6db boost at least in the lower frequencies, more if you have more than one hard surface, on top of that the FOH speakers will radiate the bass in every direction so the PA bass adds to your onstage sound and because of the time delay will muddy the bass as well. It's going to be be really hard to mimic the FOH sound exactly however good the eq. The only way to take room acoustics out of the equation is to use in-ears. The next best option (stating the obvious here) is to use a PA speaker to mimic the PA speaker. You'll have to trim the bass but at least the rest will be 'PA sounding'. Unless you go for one of the new FRFR speakers changing the amp isn't necessarily going to give you all you want. The power amp will remove the colouring from the bass amp but not from the speaker. You would probably be better off using a good quality active PA speaker as a floor monitor to achieve your FOH sound. Better still use in-ears

 

The trouble is that monitoring in that way involves the whole band. If they are relying on your backline for monitoring your bass then you'll need a traditional 'stack' and what you are suggesting is a good solution potentially with more power than you'll ever need. Maybe you should also consider an active PA speaker as backline too.