How do people feel about modern university education

[ironside1966]

How do people feel about modern university education in music and music technology?

Have you got a better job out of it? Did it give you the skill to earn money in the music business?

Did it give you the skills or just a leg up?

If you employ musicians or engineers what do you think of the emerging students?

Is the standard university dependent or is it across the board?

[Machines]

I knew a guy who got a degree in Music Technology (played bass too). Couldn't get a job in it and ended up working in IT and as a Forklift driver following that.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='479024' date='May 4 2009, 02:56 PM']How do people feel about modern university education in music and music technology?

Have you got a better job out of it? Did it give you the skill to earn money in the music business?

Did it give you the skills or just a leg up?

If you employ musicians or engineers what do you think of the emerging students?

Is the standard university dependent or is it across the board?[/quote]

I did an ND in music technology, it was fun and free at the time, i was offered a place at uni to do it, but i knew i would never be able to find a job in the music industry.

Since when do people need a degree to make money in music?


Music Technology is a worthless qualification that was created alongside other more "artsy" degree, to pander for the less English/Math/Science oreintated, who were complaining they couldnt get a job in their respective fields, So colleges and universitys created the qualifications on the promise that you would have far better prospects.

The reality is, there are many many many more people coming out of college with these qualifications then their are jobs. And frankly in the music industry at least, experience is everything. After doing the Music Technology ND for 2 years I still had no idea of how the industry worked.



Anyway, i backed off for a couple of years after the music tech course and decided to do a "proper" degree Computer Software Engineering. Its hard but i know there is a job for me when i leave, whether it be to do with computing, office, admin or management (Computing teaches you much much more then about computers!)

When i started computing, i thought i would like to do Tech support or Network admin after i left, Now i am thinking more Systems Analysis.

[RhysP]

I know a few people who have done "popular" music based degrees (guitar schools, music technology etc) & don't know anyone who works as anything other than a self employed teacher, mainly being hired on a freelance basis by Local Councils to teach guitar, drums or whatever.

The problem with these niche courses is that the amount of people they churn out with a qualification far outstrips the number of jobs available in a business where who you know is probably more important than anything else.

The only person I know who does very well in a music based career ( a good friend of mine & drummer in my old band) is heavily involved in big European music productions such as the Montreaux Jazz festival as well as stage managing & drum teching for some VERY big names - he doesn't have any sort of qualifications whatsoever. He started off as a roadie & learned his craft out on the road, building up a good reputation for himself as he went along.

Edited May 4, 2009 by RhysP

[maxrossell]

The problem is more complex than "the courses are sh*t".

I know a guy who did the same course as me, bummed around, did sod-all, graduated with a 2.2 and now does bar work. Two other guys on the same course worked their arses off and now have the begginings of what looks like a pretty decent media production company.

In my view there are too many people at uni who shouldn't be there because they're not mature enough to take advantage of the possibilities on offer. That's not such a huge deal in courses such as law and what have you because there, like at school, you either do the work or you fail. By comparison it's easy to say that the arts and media courses are just a three-year dossers' holiday, but that's a fairly short-sighted view of the problem.

Did the course I did make me more employable? No, not in the sense that someone looking at my CV will be more likely to hire me. But also yes, in the sense that I learned skills that I could now get paid for, were I so inclined.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='479059' date='May 4 2009, 03:52 PM']The problem is more complex than "the courses are sh*t".

I know a guy who did the same course as me, bummed around, did sod-all, graduated with a 2.2 and now does bar work. Two other guys on the same course worked their arses off and now have the begginings of what looks like a pretty decent media production company.

In my view there are too many people at uni who shouldn't be there because they're not mature enough to take advantage of the possibilities on offer. That's not such a huge deal in courses such as law and what have you because there, like at school, you either do the work or you fail. By comparison it's easy to say that the arts and media courses are just a three-year dossers' holiday, but that's a fairly short-sighted view of the problem.

Did the course I did make me more employable? No, not in the sense that someone looking at my CV will be more likely to hire me. But also yes, in the sense that I learned skills that I could now get paid for, were I so inclined.[/quote]


Oh i agree you learn things, i learnt quite a bit, however as you say, it didnt make me a bit more employable, if i had time to not make a career and be an art "Dosser" then i would have gone and started the degree in music tech as well, I like the fact i learnt how to record my own music, and learnt about acoustics. However in my mind College and University are there to make you more employable and get a qualification for a professional career.

So to the op, if you have 2 or 3 years free where you'll have alot of fun and dont mind spending alot of money, by all means go for it, if you want a good job and career prospects go take a real degree.

I think the only real way a degree in music would help, is if you wanted to start your own business within music, be it a studio, or live rig company. But i still dont think its any replacement for actual world experience.

[ironside1966]

University is never wasted if you work hard but I don’t understand why anyone would invest in university if it is not a gateway to employment and good employment. It is a expensive indulgence for a hobby, i.e. not making money

If you want be a bass player for a living the uni fees will get you lots of privet tuition.

“I learned skills that I could now get paid for, were I so inclined.” Why would you not be inclined.

Why are you not using your skill for employment this is not a dig or personal just curiosity as to why people invest in uni then do something else.

If it’s more money in your day job why go to uni
Just some thoughts

[thepurpleblob]

I think there's a general point here (I work in a "proper" University). The whole higher education thing has been diluted by successive Government's desires to get everybody possible off the dole queue and into some sort of education. The trouble is that everybody and his dog now has a degree of some sort. I would suggest that in the good old days some of these music courses would never have got a degree designation at all. I'm not being snobby about degree courses but I actually miss the old tech colleges that taught you an honest profession - *properly*. Now everybody has to be an academic. There's loads more graduates than there are graduate jobs and you're just going to get your hopes raised and then end up working in Asda.

Meanwhile, as usual, the people with talent, determination, bullshit and being in the right place at the right time continue to get the good gigs.

[YouMa]

Dont do music at university, the chances of you making any decent money out of it are about as slim as you winning the lottery. Get a trade you can always fall back on this and you will usually make enough money to buy all the music stuff you want,besides if you are really interested in music and music technology you can learn all you want to know from books/magazines/internet.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='Shockwave' post='479063' date='May 4 2009, 04:03 PM']Oh i agree you learn things, i learnt quite a bit, however as you say, it didnt make me a bit more employable, if i had time to not make a career and be an art "Dosser" then i would have gone and started the degree in music tech as well, I like the fact i learnt how to record my own music, and learnt about acoustics. However in my mind College and University are there to make you more employable and get a qualification for a professional career.

So to the op, if you have 2 or 3 years free where you'll have alot of fun and dont mind spending alot of money, by all means go for it, if you want a good job and career prospects go take a real degree.

I think the only real way a degree in music would help, is if you wanted to start your own business within music, be it a studio, or live rig company. But i still dont think its any replacement for actual world experience.[/quote]

Yeah I see what you're getting at.

But again, with courses like these it's not an either/or situation, as in either something where you can graduate and there's be a bunch of jobs open to you because you have the piece of paper, or a massive three-year money hole.

I didn't take my course with the assumption that I'd have more jobs offered to me on the back end because of it, and I think anyone who does take a similar course on that basis is probably mistaken. I realise that it's a slightly controversial and not massively popular view, but I sincerely believe that it's a good thing for people to go and study something for three years, even if it doesn't translate into employment prospects. It's not like it was at the taxpayers' expense (thanks to New Labour). Sure, it's not for everyone, but then university isn't for everyone and I don't think it should be.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='479073' date='May 4 2009, 04:12 PM']University is never wasted if you work hard but I don’t understand why anyone would invest in university if it is not a gateway to employment and good employment. It is a expensive indulgence for a hobby, i.e. not making money

If you want be a bass player for a living the uni fees will get you lots of privet tuition.

“I learned skills that I could now get paid for, were I so inclined.” Why would you not be inclined.

Why are you not using your skill for employment this is not a dig or personal just curiosity as to why people invest in uni then do something else.

If it’s more money in your day job why go to uni
Just some thoughts[/quote]

I'm not inclined because of my personal situation. I can't be full time employed or even part-time on a regular basis. I still do work here and there that I wouldn't have had access to had I not learned the skills that I picked up at univeristy, however it's not the kind of work where someone looked at my CV and gave me a job.

And regarding why people would do it if it's not a gateway to employment, then yes you can look at it as an expensive indulgence. Or as just the desire to go and learn stuff.

[RhysP]

[quote name='thepurpleblob' post='479077' date='May 4 2009, 04:16 PM']I think there's a general point here (I work in a "proper" University). The whole higher education thing has been diluted by successive Government's desires to get everybody possible off the dole queue and into some sort of education. The trouble is that everybody and his dog now has a degree of some sort. I would suggest that in the good old days some of these music courses would never have got a degree designation at all. I'm not being snobby about degree courses but I actually miss the old tech colleges that taught you an honest profession - *properly*. Now everybody has to be an academic. There's loads more graduates than there are graduate jobs and you're just going to get your hopes raised and then end up working in Asda.[/quote]
Abso-bloody-lutely!!
90% of the courses offered by most "Universities" (which are basically Technical colleges with delusions of grandeur) should in no way be classed as degree standard.
It's all about bums on seats & performance tables now, so these places offer populist courses with little to no serious academic content just to get the punters (for that's what students are now) in.

[WinterMute]

It really depends on what you study and who teaches you, the Music Tech dept at TVU (where I am a senior lecturer) is staffed by some heavyweight industry pros, you get taught studio techniques by Pip Williams (Quo and Moody Blues producer) and Industry studies by Andy East (ex chairman of the MPG) t name a couple.

The studios are pro level and are designed by a 24 year veteran engineer (me) and we have plenty of them. We haven't learnt this stuff out of a book, we still practice our craft (Pip did the last Nightwish album).

The bottom line with all Music tech type qualifications is not the level of the degree or diploma, but the individuals ability and talent and their willingness to put the hard hours into their career.

We are never less than honest about our graduates employment possibilities, as the studio recording profession has changed beyond recognition in the last 10 years, and what the MT courses at TVU provide is the skills to succeed in an industry diversified into commercial audio, audio post, game sound design, live music performance, artist management etc. etc.

We are beginning to see acceptance of degree qualifications in more structured professions like Audio Post, but if anyone tells you that getting a degree will get you a head start in a career in music, they are having a laugh or trying to sell you a bridge.

The real worth of a uni education is the personal growth and expanded learning opportunities, and the chance to learn a complex subject from people who have the t-shirt.

It's not for everyone, and not everyone will get a job upon graduation, but everyone who goes to uni come out a better person imho, albeit a poorer one!!!

If anyone wants to talk about studying at Uni (and not just mine, this honestly isn't an advert) drop me a line.

[slaphappygarry]

I did a 4 year hon degree in music and audio production and, last week landed my first major position at one of Scotland's top studios.

The contact came through the university but I put in 7 days a week during the whole of 4th year and, in the last year as a freelance self employed engineer. I have put out over a dozen albums and EP's off my own back with my own clients.

Between finishing the degree and the studio taking me on there was a solid year where I was watched and drip fed little jobs before they decided to take me on formally. I have worked so hard over the last two years to get to this point but would not be in this position had my lecturer not given me the golden introduction.

If you are not prepared, at least in the studio industry, to put in 4 hours for every 1 you get paid for at the start on small gigs (in one form or another) then don't bother.

In my case my education at University was phenominal but, at the very same time, this is because I got everything I possibly could out of it and took full advantage of all the contacts and opportunities I was given.

I think I fall very neatly into what WinterMute is talking about. Dream jobs don't land in your lap, you have to fight tooth and claw for them.

Garry

[WinterMute]

Congrats on the job mate, and that is precisely what I'm talking about.

A degree will not get you a job these days, and far too many degrees are dumbed down to serve the bottom line, but the good ones take effort and skill to gain, and the effort of graduating gives skills way beyond the subject.

[ben_eat_pie]

Do a degree in a skill that'll get you a job, and while you're there make sure you play as much music etc as poss.

Ideally go to uni in a big city - London, Manchester, Liverpool. That way you'll come out with more potential for a job, and loads more mucis experience.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='479059' date='May 4 2009, 03:52 PM']In my view there are too many people at uni who shouldn't be there because they're not mature enough to take advantage of the possibilities on offer. That's not such a huge deal in courses such as law and what have you because there, like at school, you either do the work or you fail. By comparison it's easy to say that the arts and media courses are just a three-year dossers' holiday, but that's a fairly short-sighted view of the problem.[/quote]

This struck something of a chord with my personal experience. I did a 3 year joint French/Drama (with media production) degree in a place which used to be a college, but had upgraded to University status.

It was clear that they were touting useless courses to keep the numbers up. Equally, I was a complete layabout for the whole 3 years, spending most of my time drunk, stoned or playing in bands. Like many of my fellow students I just wasn't mature enough to take advantage of what was on offer; maybe as a result, my first job was in Telesales.

Mind you, I graduated in [color="#FFFFFF"]1980.[/color] (highlight the space to find out).

Edited May 4, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Kongo]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='479024' date='May 4 2009, 02:56 PM']How do people feel about modern university education in music and music technology?

Have you got a better job out of it? Did it give you the skill to earn money in the music business?

Did it give you the skills or just a leg up?

If you employ musicians or engineers what do you think of the emerging students?

Is the standard university dependent or is it across the board?[/quote]

I've got certificates, Diploma's and Advanced Diploma's...The journey of education was worth a lifetime and I'll never forget the fun I had being around likeminded musicians going on about music all day every day...But now I'm a car trimmer...oh the irony...I won't give up though!
But by my saying I don't feel qualifications give you an edge. Of course, someone else may have better luck.
Of course, the city you live in might also be a factor.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Kongo

[Lifer]

The singer in my old band is proof that if work your butt off you can succeed and get a damn good job after uni. During his final year of Music Management he did a stint at Primary Booking for the work experience part of the course and has been there for nearly 2 years now (as a booking agent).

[jonny-lad]

I think the important thing is experience, regardless of whether you do a degree or not to get a job in music - that's where you learn how to run a business and work in the industry.

The best courses are the ones that encourage this...unfortunately, there aren't many that are focussed towards working in music, as far as I know.

I had the chance to go to uni, but saw an opportunity to play and went for that instead - I've learnt more about being a working musician than anyone I know who has done a degree in music. Of course, they've learnt things that I haven't, but I've learnt to run my own business and I've got experience that I could never have got from a course...I'm still learning too!

The main reason, however, that I would consider a degree, is to teach. It seems like a really good way to gain credibility as a teacher, and it's especially useful for things like peripatetic teaching in schools.

[SammyDamacy]

I decided after doing a diploma in music in college that I wanted to forward it to university.......

I could of gone anywhere, stayed in the Midlands and happily got a degree. But I see University as more of an experience and oppurtunity TBH.

Hence why I'm now in Brighton. Go to a music uni called BIMM (Brighton Institute of Modern Music). Anyone who's says music course's aren't 'academic', my course is in conjunction with Sussex Uni, who [b]make sure[/b] your academically worked hard. They aren't easy on you.

But anyway......I came here because it's one the big musical cities, and I wanted to see what kind of musicians I could meet down there.

The worst that can happen (besides failing) is become a teacher/college lecturer, can't see that as a bad thing. Optimistically there are lot better things that can come my way, if I work damn hard at it.

I guess it's harder to get a job nowadays, but you'll find the guys who got their music degree and then did cock all with it did it because they didn't try and did cock all to help themselves.

I just think it's like any degree/qualification......if you want it that badly, you can get somewhere in that profession.

It's just down to the individual.

[SammyDamacy]

[quote name='YouMa' post='479078' date='May 4 2009, 04:16 PM']Dont do music at university, the chances of you making any decent money out of it are about as slim as you winning the lottery. Get a trade you can always fall back on this and you will usually make enough money to buy all the music stuff you want,besides if you are really interested in music and music technology you can learn all you want to know from books/magazines/internet.[/quote]

Don't see why you shouldn't personally. That's as good as saying 'don't take art/dance/sports/photography'. Be an exciting place to be then aye.

Out of curiosity, where in your mind does a 'hobby' end and a 'career' begin?

[Gray]

Just to share my experience rather than add anything to the debate.

I graduated a decade ago from (at the time) one of the very few Popular Music & Music Technology degrees.

Since then I have have worked constantly as a music educator / performer/ sound engineer. I've never had to work in anything none music related to make the mortgage. This said - I'm the only person from my degree class who has had this experience.

From what I have seen over the last decade as a course tutor in a FE college - music education has improved, both in FE and HE. When I started my degree the experience was at times a touch shambolic - the feedback I get from my ex students suggests that HE is much more goal oriented and organised than when I attended.

On the flipside I was introducing my students to the UCAS process last week and noted that in the UK there are now app. 1200 music related HE courses available. I seem to remember a figure of around 100 when I applied. This suggests to me that competition for any work (freelance or otherwise) amongst graduates is increasingly fierce.

Many of the students who I have seen progress to HE have benefitted greatly from the experience - learnt some fascinating stuff in the ever evolving fields of art / technology and found useful employment, sometimes even in a related field.

However, at least two of my ex students who choose not to progress to HE are currently touring the world doing arena size gigs. Many more are producing some beautiful music and holding down day jobs to support themselves.

It is my view that HE focusses your mind and allows you the time to hone those skills (playing, technology and interpersonal) which are essential in getting work in the creative arts.

[YouMa]

[quote name='SammyDamacy' post='479614' date='May 5 2009, 01:28 AM']Don't see why you shouldn't personally. That's as good as saying 'don't take art/dance/sports/photography'. Be an exciting place to be then aye.

Out of curiosity, where in your mind does a 'hobby' end and a 'career' begin?[/quote]


Do you know any rich dancers/artists/phtographers/or P.E. teachers. You seem to be more of an positive thinker than me. Best of luck.

[SammyDamacy]

[quote name='YouMa' post='481407' date='May 6 2009, 09:03 PM']Do you know any rich dancers/artists/phtographers/or P.E. teachers. You seem to be more of an positive thinker than me. Best of luck.[/quote]

Depends what you mean by rich. I'd rather earn a little or standard wage and do something I love then be rolling in it.

But that's me. Everyone's different. Thanks for your best wishes, there's a lot worse you can do than think positively.