Can you emulate a speaker cabinet with amp EQ?

[warwickhunt]

2 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

@warwickhunt - you would be able to test it, if you load a blank IR into your NUX and just use the HPF/LPF on the editor

 

I was with you right up until you said "load a blank IR into your NUX and just use the HPF/LPF on the editor"!    

[LukeFRC]

12 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

I was with you right up until you said "load a blank IR into your NUX and just use the HPF/LPF on the editor"!    

so is a IR is a eq curve with a time dimension.... 
A blank IR is one that is flat and does nothing - like these https://www.strymon.net/faq/bypassing-the-cab-on-iridium-with-a-null-cab-ir-file/ 

 

Then when you turn the IR on, it does nothing other than what you set the HPF and LPF at in the editor... (which I just installed to get you this screen grab) 

[Baloney Balderdash]

4 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

 

though interestingly these aren't IR's ... they literally are EQ curves....

 

 

I bought a multiFX pedal (Zoom B3, then Zoom B3n then HXstomp) mainly as I played at a church and odd things would happen on the digital desk. Part of my way of solving this was to give them a signal that approximated the response of a bass cab with the top and bottom trimmed... 

 

The Zoom things were really nice, but the HXstomp got into IRs and... I tried them for a long time but couldn't make them work for me. 
To my ears IR's sound amazing on electric guitar and do lovely things to the tone. The HX stomp is utterly amazing on electric. 
For bass though the sound of a speaker cab recorded through a mic just felt odd, like there was a blanket thrown over something, or some thing in the phase in the mids or there was latentency I was playing against or something (NB I have no idea what it was) - and I always preferred using no IR or cab sim and just a HPF, LPF. 

@warwickhunt - you would be able to test it, if you load a blank IR into your NUX and just use the HPF/LPF on the editor

4 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

so is a IR is a eq curve with a time dimension.... 
A blank IR is one that is flat and does nothing - like these https://www.strymon.net/faq/bypassing-the-cab-on-iridium-with-a-null-cab-ir-file/ 

 

Then when you turn the IR on, it does nothing other than what you set the HPF and LPF at in the editor... (which I just installed to get you this screen grab) 

Except for the LPF not going any lower than 10kHz on that NUX preamp which is a pretty high cut for emulating any non high frequency tweeter equipped bass cabinet, around 3 to 4 kHz would be more like it.

 

It's still a useful tool for finetuning the upper high end response of various IR cab sims, especially if it is of a cab with a build in high frequency tweeter, but not really suited to emulate a bass cab standing alone.

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[0175westwood29]

9 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

 

though interestingly these aren't IR's ... they literally are EQ curves....

 

 

I bought a multiFX pedal (Zoom B3, then Zoom B3n then HXstomp) mainly as I played at a church and odd things would happen on the digital desk. Part of my way of solving this was to give them a signal that approximated the response of a bass cab with the top and bottom trimmed... 

 

The Zoom things were really nice, but the HXstomp got into IRs and... I tried them for a long time but couldn't make them work for me. 
To my ears IR's sound amazing on electric guitar and do lovely things to the tone. The HX stomp is utterly amazing on electric. 
For bass though the sound of a speaker cab recorded through a mic just felt odd, like there was a blanket thrown over something, or some thing in the phase in the mids or there was latentency I was playing against or something (NB I have no idea what it was) - and I always preferred using no IR or cab sim and just a HPF, LPF. 

@warwickhunt - you would be able to test it, if you load a blank IR into your NUX and just use the HPF/LPF on the editor

I think it’s down to finding the right ir 

 

I love someone micing up a cab, but it’s not always practical 

 

At the min I only use ir for home recording but am gonna add it to my live di to help it

[BigRedX]

Close mic'ing a single driver in a cab is not the same as the sound of all the drivers in your cab(s) from a couple of feet away (which is the sound most of us are used to hearing).

[chyc]

If I had to explain IR vs EQ, I'd probably start with the fact that IR can capture reverberation whereas EQ cannot. Reverb can be that of the room, but it's there baked into the speaker itself. You apply a signal to a speaker and it will vibrate, and when you immediately stop the current the cone will continue to vibrate a little bit due to the stored potential energy and momentum. Many speakers do their best to minimize this but older designed speakers in particular will have this effect.

 

Impulse response isn't perfect. It's a very linear change from input -> output with no accounting for non-linear changes for different input volumes. As I understand it Celestion's proprietary DSR is much better in that regard, but that requires a computer. I'm sure there are other competing products.

[Brucegill]

neunaber iconoclast Might be worth looking at. Can get quite deep with the editor and the eq curve responds to dynamics. 

[BigRedX]

The important thing is can anyone tell the difference between a real cab properly mic'd, an IR and a decent EQ when the bass is placed in the context of an overall band mix either live or in the recording studio?

[0175westwood29]

1 minute ago, BigRedX said:

The important thing is can anyone tell the difference between a real cab properly mic'd, an IR and a decent EQ when the bass is placed in the context of an overall band mix either live or in the recording studio?

joe public couldnt tel the difference between an svt, abm or a darkglass head...tbh

 

its down to feel and how it lets me play, i always try to match ir to the amp and rig i play, in the mix i just want it to sound good, but if its what im hearing it needs to be what i want, however im def advise the sound guy on how to layer the signals i send (Sub, Synth and amp di) also if i send them a ir'd and treated di ive not yet had an upset sound guy.

however im not trying to make a 112 sound like a 215, im trying to get the sound of my 215 into the pa.

 

 

 

 

im gonna start using iem probs towards the end of the year, and for that the ir's (for me two notes) work the best for me

[BigRedX]

IME the problem with getting the live sound you want is not the gear but the fact that you are being mixed by someone who probably has no idea about how you should sound, and at best might have checked out a couple of your songs on Spotify in the afternoon before the gig.

 

The biggest improvement I have ever made to any of my bands' live sound was for us to have our own sound engineer. He was essentially a 5th member of the band, came to all the rehearsals and often to the programming and writing sessions so he had a complete understanding of what all the instruments were doing in every song. So when the mix wasn't quite right he could tell instantly which instrument was missing or causing the problem and immediately adjust it accordingly. 

 

One of my current bands has ditched using backline and everything goes straight into the PA. However we have discovered that the moment you give someone who doesn't know how the band should sound control over EQ and levels you also give them the ability the completely mess it up. Even if we were using backline, for most of the gigs we do this would be for on-stage monitoring only and would have little impact on what is heard FoH. Our next move will be either to look for our own sound engineer or to invest in a digital mixer and give the PA a complete mix that they can't mess up.

[0175westwood29]

5 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

The biggest improvement I have ever made to any of my bands' live sound was for us to have our own sound engineer. He was essentially a 5th member of the band, came to all the rehearsals and often to the programming and writing sessions so he had a complete understanding of what all the instruments were doing in every song. So when the mix wasn't quite right he could tell instantly which instrument was missing or causing the problem and immediately adjust it accordingly. 

 

 

very true, were its also important to be able to mix yourself on stage a bit aswell, but agree a usless SE is a waste of time.

[warwickhunt]

42 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Our next move will be either to look for our own sound engineer or to invest in a digital mixer and give the PA a complete mix that they can't mess up.

 

Are you talking about your band controls / sets the mix and then you give the FOH/SE a L&R send?  

[0175westwood29]

2 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

Are you talking about your band controls / sets the mix and then you give the FOH/SE a L&R send?  

think he basically saying they mix themselves and yeh plug into the pa so the in house guy doesnt need to do anything

 

[BigRedX]

7 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

Are you talking about your band controls / sets the mix and then you give the FOH/SE a L&R send?  

 

Yes. We may run the vocals out of a separate output so they can be balanced up separately, but everything else (drum machine, Bass VI and synths) will be run in a very narrow stereo field.

[warwickhunt]

Just now, 0175westwood29 said:

think he basically saying they mix themselves and yeh plug into the pa so the in house guy doesnt need to do anything

 

 

Hmmmm.  

 

A - I can't see an in house engineer being to happy that he is redundant.

B - Can the band envisage that they can mix the sound for every venue effectively and deal with any issues arising in real time etc because the FOH SE will only be able to turn you up/down or effect the whole band mix with EQing.  

 

If you are talking about the band having a splitter so that they have an in/out/thru for each channel; they control IE sound/mix and send an identical signal of each input to the FOH that might make sense.

 

[0175westwood29]

Just now, warwickhunt said:

 

Hmmmm.  

 

A - I can't see an in house engineer being to happy that he is redundant.

B - Can the band envisage that they can mix the sound for every venue effectively and deal with any issues arising in real time etc because the FOH SE will only be able to turn you up/down or effect the whole band mix with EQing.  

 

If you are talking about the band having a splitter so that they have an in/out/thru for each channel; they control IE sound/mix and send an identical signal of each input to the FOH that might make sense.

 

 

plenty shows ive been to and played the headline band has had there own sound guy, who either runs the inhouse rig or will plug into the pa themselves the first thing is much more common as you can find out the desk and talk abou t this in advance.

 

the band mixing themsleves if they know what they are doing is totally fine, when you go see a bigger show or tour one SE will not mix the whole show each band will have there own

[warwickhunt]

2 minutes ago, 0175westwood29 said:

 

plenty shows ive been to and played the headline band has had there own sound guy, who either runs the inhouse rig or will plug into the pa themselves the first thing is much more common as you can find out the desk and talk abou t this in advance.

 

the band mixing themsleves if they know what they are doing is totally fine, when you go see a bigger show or tour one SE will not mix the whole show each band will have there own

 

No I get this, we mix our own sound via our digital 'desk' and gig in venues with in-house engineers but we either accept that we turn FOH over to an engineer or we mix ourselves; different if you are taking your own engineer who will handle the PA.  On multi line up gigs such as festivals you are unlikely to have that option to just turn up and say 'We'll give you a stereo feed of our mix' as the engineers will have no control over balance or issues arising!  

[Lozz196]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

IME the problem with getting the live sound you want is not the gear but the fact that you are being mixed by someone who probably has no idea about how you should sound

This definitely. I played a gig, DI from my Sansamp to FOH as usual, lots of top-end twang plus some drive when digging in.

 

After the gig the soundguy said to me he had a nightmare with my bass sound trying to get it to sound like a proper bass, but by removing the top end and high mids he got it sounding like a regular P-bass.

 

So I`d given him JJ Burnell, he gave the audience James Jamerson (I`m talking sounds here, not the playing btw). Doh!

[Tech21NYC]

21 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

After the gig the soundguy said to me he had a nightmare with my bass sound trying to get it to sound like a proper bass, but by removing the top end and high mids he got it sounding like a regular P-bass.

It sounds like your sound tech doesn't know what a "normal" bass sounds like. Electric bass is a two part instrument. The bass and the amp. The entire reason the Bass Driver was created was to avoid the typical DI'd sound of your guitar's pickups without the benefit of the bass amp and speaker. Bass sounds in the studio (though sometimes direct without an amp) were usually done by recording a bass amp with a microphone and mixing that sound with the DI'd sound to add articulation. The original intent of the Bass Driver was to plug into the unit and send the parallel output to your bass amp and use that for your stage monitor and tone. The XLR out of the BDDI was then sent to the board allowing you to mix the amp emulation with the DI'd tone like in the studio. 

 

Analog speaker sims like we use and companies like Palmer, ADA, H&K etc use low and high pass filtering in conjunction with EQ to simulate the speaker frequency response of a recorded speaker. An impulse response sends an "impulse" through a system to take a digital snapshot of the system. The IR captures the frequency response, phase, time and reflections of the system. IR's only capture the linear response, they can't capture compression and distortion. IR's are very accurate and work well in many applications. After making my own IR's and buying and using dozens of them I find that whether using actual microphones or impulse responses it's very difficult to capture the entirety of a cabinet in the room in a useable way. Whether or not they always sound or work better is a matter of taste and application. Some sound techs prefer analog sims. 

 

To me the one downside of IR's is that there is no way to use them without going digital. The other downside is that they don't work well into a typical analog guitar or bass rig. The other thing to consider is that there is a big difference between listening to your sound through a pair of nearfield monitors at low volume or headphones vs the sound coming through a large PA system in a big space. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

2 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

This definitely. I played a gig, DI from my Sansamp to FOH as usual, lots of top-end twang plus some drive when digging in.

 

After the gig the soundguy said to me he had a nightmare with my bass sound trying to get it to sound like a proper bass, but by removing the top end and high mids he got it sounding like a regular P-bass.

 

So I`d given him JJ Burnell, he gave the audience James Jamerson (I`m talking sounds here, not the playing btw). Doh!

 

Hopefully you told him to go shag himself and leave his job to someone actually qualified for it, or else he could expect to have his face rearranged to match his brain capacity, so that no one would ever mistake him for not having a deformed brain and not being a dim wit again.

 

"I am certain we can make you look the proper dim wit you are, don't worry I am an experienced "plastic surgent""

 

I luckily have only had good experiences with sound guys, people who actually understood what they were doing and had respect for the sound of the bands I was playing in.

 

But damn, these kind of stories makes me furious! 

 

Why would anyone take a job where other people are dependent on your qualification when they are absolutely clueless about how to execute it properly? 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[0175westwood29]

6 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

 

Hopefully you told him to go shag himself and leave his job to someone actually qualified for it, or he could expect to have his face rearranged to match his brain capacity, so that no one would ever mistake him for not having a deformed brain and not being a dim wit again.

 

I luckily have only had good experiences with sound guys who actually understood what they were doing and had respect for the sound of the bands I was playing in.

 

But damn, these stories makes me furious! 

 

Why would anyone take a job where other people were dependent on your qualification, when they are absolutely clueless about how to execute it properly? 

 

 

 

this i have no idea why some sound guys feel the need to make a band sound how they want, they should take in how the band sound and go from there make suggestions if needed, ive had sound men try and take a di straight from my basssaying they like a clean signal ( i use a big pedalboard) and then had one guy just help him self changing amp eq and pedal settings.

 

for me ir wont sound like they do in headphones but sending that to a foh will sound better than a harsh di and also the venues who will mic any guitar amp they see yet scream and run from putting one on a bass.

 

its also to be said ive seen people turn up and want to use the exact sound threy recorded with.....this 90%of the time wont work either

[LukeFRC]

3 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

This definitely. I played a gig, DI from my Sansamp to FOH as usual, lots of top-end twang plus some drive when digging in.

 

After the gig the soundguy said to me he had a nightmare with my bass sound trying to get it to sound like a proper bass, but by removing the top end and high mids he got it sounding like a regular P-bass.

 

So I`d given him JJ Burnell, he gave the audience James Jamerson (I`m talking sounds here, not the playing btw). Doh!

I had it the other way, was accompanying a singer songwriter, made the mistake of rolling the highs off on the amp to go for a Jameson soul type sound, way down in the mix but quite “busy” in the way Jameson was.

odd gig, it sounded ok, didn’t seem to gel together and more people nodding their heads than I would have expected for laid back music …

 

sound guy complimented me on my playing and how my tone reminded him of JJ Burnell 

Edited August 1, 2023 by LukeFRC

[warwickhunt]

I may have posted this in another thread but I can trump some of your 'sound guy fixes tone' anecdotes.  

 

I play in a Cheap Trick tribute; the guy from CT, Tom Petersson literally invented the 12 string bass and has a tone (not to everyone's taste) that encapsulates the 12 string bass + bass AND guitar valve amps.  I got to a gig, set up and then went to have a bit of a chat with the engineer.  I explained what I was trying to achieve with my 4 string bass, some drive from the Sansamp and a mix of effects to get somewhere near Tom's tone.  He came over to me 30 mins later to ask for a dry feed from a DI for the FOH so he could get a nice fat clean bass sound out front.    DOH!  

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

If in doubt before the full sound check take your bass and DI into the FOH and run into the board from there, making sure that the spund from the PA is what you want, not what he wants. If necessary remind him of the pecking order. No one ever bought a concert ticket based on who was running sound.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Lozz196]

Def one advantage of wireless kits - walk out into the audience area and hear what is being done to the sound of the band.