Beware - not all Speakon connectors are the same

[tuck1s]

The left one is a genuine Neutrik. The right is the one that came fitted on the lead. The internal diameter looks different, which may explain why it gave a dodgy connection.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by tuck1s

[Bigguy2017]

Even the Neutrik ones are different thicknesses - here's an NL2FC, an NL4FX, and an NL4FC.  Weird....

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Bigguy2017

[snorkie635]

2 minutes ago, Bigguy2017 said:

Even the Neutrik ones are different thicknesses - here's an NL2FC, an NL4FX, and an NL4FC.  Weird....

 

 

Damn! That's me back to the Clinic again! 🤪

[Stub Mandrel]

Some of them have different contacts so you can connect speakers with opposite phase using the same plug. Not sure how it works/how it's better than just having swapped wires.

[Stub Mandrel]

I may be wrongbin the details, but those are probably 2 and 4 pole versions.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakon_connector

[Baloney Balderdash]

!!!Spoiler!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father!

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Downunderwonder]

Knockoff speakons are infamous for getting stuck inside gear and causing damage. Avoid.

[Woodinblack]

I have 2 speakons that worked fine on my TC450 to speaker if you used them the right way round, but didn't work the other way round. I cured that by putting tape around the end that needed to be by the amp!

[tauzero]

On 05/08/2023 at 18:11, Stub Mandrel said:

I may be wrongbin the details, but those are probably 2 and 4 pole versions.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakon_connector

 

NL2s are 2 pole, NL4s are 4 pole. FC has a latch lock (locking ring for the NL2FC). The NL4FX has been discontinued, and so has the NL4FC, so those plugs will become collectors' items. Looks like the ones to get now are the NLT4FXX or NL4FXX.

[Bigguy2017]

40 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

NL2s are 2 pole, NL4s are 4 pole. FC has a latch lock (locking ring for the NL2FC). The NL4FX has been discontinued, and so has the NL4FC, so those plugs will become collectors' items. Looks like the ones to get now are the NLT4FXX or NL4FXX.

The Neutrik website and catalogue are no help - they still have the discontinued models - very confusing.

I've got a few NL4FX on hand, and they're still in stock with CPC / RS but if I need more it might have to be the newer ones

 

NL4FXX
37 A 250 V AC

 

NLT4FXX
30 A 250 V AC

 

NLT4FXX-BAG
30 A 250 V AC
 

[tauzero]

17 minutes ago, Bigguy2017 said:

The Neutrik website and catalogue are no help - they still have the discontinued models - very confusing.

I've got a few NL4FX on hand, and they're still in stock with CPC / RS but if I need more it might have to be the newer ones

 

NL4FXX
37 A 250 V AC

 

NLT4FXX
30 A 250 V AC

 

NLT4FXX-BAG
30 A 250 V AC
 

 

The Neutrik website does have the discontinued ones marked as discontinued, but for extra confusion there's only one range that's fully discontinued and marked as such, the other two (IIRC) ranges which are partially discontinued still have the 8-pole plugs, so you have to delve into the range to find out that most of it is discontinued.

[Newfoundfreedom]

On 06/08/2023 at 13:52, Woodinblack said:

I have 2 speakons that worked fine on my TC450 to speaker if you used them the right way round, but didn't work the other way round. I cured that by putting tape around the end that needed to be by the amp!

 

Yup. I've got a couple that are exactly the same. 

 

Weird 🤔

[tauzero]

On 06/08/2023 at 11:52, Woodinblack said:

I have 2 speakons that worked fine on my TC450 to speaker if you used them the right way round, but didn't work the other way round. I cured that by putting tape around the end that needed to be by the amp!

 

I'm trying to work out how that could be. I suppose if one end was 1+/1- and the other end was 2+/2-, then either the speaker or the amp was 1+/1- and the other end had 1+ and 2+ connected together and 1- and 2- connected together, that would do it. You don't fancy taking the lead apart and telling us what you find, do you?

[Passinwind]

A particularly insidious example:  https://www.talkbass.com/threads/caution-regarding-some-newly-introduced-speakon-cables.1617450/

[Woodinblack]

6 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

I'm trying to work out how that could be. I suppose if one end was 1+/1- and the other end was 2+/2-, then either the speaker or the amp was 1+/1- and the other end had 1+ and 2+ connected together and 1- and 2- connected together, that would do it. You don't fancy taking the lead apart and telling us what you find, do you?

 

I took it apart before and couldn't work out what the problem was!

[Dan Dare]

With the price difference between real Speakons and knockoffs being so small, it isn't worth saving a few pennies on knockoffs. 

[3below]

2 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

With the price difference between real Speakons and knockoffs being so small, it isn't worth saving a few pennies on knockoffs. 

I have encountered knockoffs that would work in some sockets and not others (even though they inserted correctly). Not worth the hassle given the price difference as @Dan Dare says.

[Chienmortbb]

Having recently had long email conversations with Neutrik, I can be of some help here.

 

The old 2 and 4 way Neutrik speakONs have been discontinued as they do not meet the new IEC directive. The new directive comes into force on 1st January 2024. Whilst the new and old speakONs are compatible, the new ones only comply with regulations if the chassis sockets also meet the new regs. Most amps we own or those in stock at the moment in the market will not be compliant. However, cables sold on, or after, 1st Jan must be compliant. As I understand it, both UL in the US, CE marking and the UK equivalents (got to love Brexit) require compliance.

 

I am still assimilating the information, but as I see it, these new plugs break all contacts simultaneously to remove the chance of am electric shock. They have also been uprated in both voltage and current.

 

I was also advised that the combo sockets, that were rated at 10 amps on the jack socket, are now derated to 0,5A. That means a maximum of 2 watts into 8 ohms or 1 watt into 4 ohms. Before anyone tells me that they have been using jacks on an Ampeg since 100BC, jack plugs were designed as signal plugs and never designed for speakers.

 

I am sure someone like @agedhorse will be well aware of these changes and be along soon to correct any errors. I have had comments that this is Neutrik's way of fighting the cheap Chinese copies. However, as a reputable company, they have to abide by the standards in force.

 

I now have samples of the new XX series, and they are more robust, but are tricky to assemble properly. I have already seen prices of the old plugs reduce, while the new plugs are at a higher price point and are harder to obtain.

 

 

 

[agedhorse]

This is a VERY complicated subject, and the blanket statements that are being made by the marketing materials have 3 distinct differences that are quite vague and misleading.

 

1. There is a difference in the general ratings between the PowerCon and SpeakOn connectors because the applications are very different. Since the PowerCon is used on the AC primary, specific clearance and creepage values have been updated in the new IEC 62368- standard.  Since the SpeakOn is used on the secondary side of the AC system, the clearance/creepage values are not the same issue as on primary applications. On the AC primary side connectors, there is an additional need to be able to break the current without arcing since in the event of a subsequent short circuit, the available fault current (and power) is many times higher than on  the secondary, which impacts PowerCon differently. Since Neutrik manufactures mating PowerCon cord sets, they must be compliant as well and that's a different matter entirely. How Europe handles the mating SpeakOn plugs is yet to be seen, but my feeling is that it's more bark than bite since Europe is already flooded with Chinese knock-offs of all kinds of products requiring certification (and for good reason) without any meaningful consequences to the violators AND there is a willing market of consumers focused on cheap rather than safe.

 

2. On the SpeakOn connectors, specifically the chassis jacks, since the chassis cutout is so large, AND because on a typical bass amp the speaker signal is classified as a potential ignition source PIS3, the housing material must have a specific flame spread rating of UL 94V-0 which is a VERTICAL spread rating and much harder to meet than the older UL 94HB which is HORIZONTAL and what the older housings were made from. The same applies to the older version of some (but not all) PowerCons. This requires different molding materials for the housing of the jack, though sometimes the older jacks can comply based on the specific application and lack of proximity to other PIS components, or by component testing. This is application specific and both the determination and the testing is convoluted.

 

3. On the SpeakOn specifically, changes in current ratings were also made, updates to both the continuous and duty cycle rated currents which are used in the application of designs under the new IEC 62368-1 safety standard without the need to do additional testing of the connector.

 

Also, the speaker application rating is based on both short current (for contact current density) and long term under the audio power derating requirements, so while the contact rating may be 15 amps RMS, on the older connectors which are rated as continuous, the new connectors are rated for higher contact current density, but use 50% duty cycle rather than continuous. The new connectors specifically address contact robustness for very high pro audio power amps, not like what we see in bass amps.

 

Much if this is addressed within the finished amplifier's certification procedure, it's a long and VERY expensive process. For example, on our guitar amps (we don't use 1/4" jacks for speaker outputs on the bass amps), most 1/4" jacks do not need to be V-0 rated due to their locations within the amp, but the speaker jacks do because the signal is at PIS2 or PIS3 levels. We had to separately approve the jacks we use to insure that they met the flame spread rating before they could be used in a location requiring this protection. This is one of the many reasons for the delays in certification approvals in Europe. We have many amplifier models and many components that needed to be evaluated and in a lot of cases tested separately before being tested in the finished amplifier because they are custom parts.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by agedhorse

[Chienmortbb]

]

On 19/08/2023 at 19:25, agedhorse said:

Also, the speaker application rating is based on both short current (for contact current density) and long term under the audio power derating requirements, so while the contact rating may be 15 amps RMS, on the older connectors which are rated as continuous, the new connectors are rated for higher contact current density, but use 50% duty cycle rather than continuous. The new connectors specifically address contact robustness for very high pro audio power amps, not like what we see in bass amps.

So, the actual current rating is marginally better with the new series? I agree we do not need the high current for bass amps, in the same way we don't need 4mm/11 AWG cable, except with the multi kilowatt PA amps. 

 

Of course, we do need those for the 2000 watt bass amps, like the Bugeras NOT.

 

What do the new standards say about 1/4" jacks for speaker use?

[agedhorse]

3 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

What do the new standards say about 1/4" jacks for speaker use?

This is another "it depends" answer and how the test lab applies the regulations (there can be a lot of gray area and interpretation, especially in MI audio).

 

Under 25 watts probably isn't going to trigger anything but as power increases you begin to run into limits of connectors under the abnormal conditions clauses. This covers things like maximum continuous power until temperatures stabilize, 1/8-rated power into 1/2 the lowest rated load impedance, 1/8-power into a shorted load, etc. (the amp can fail under these tests but can't create a hazard while doing so). 

 

Another thing to consider is the connector and/or the opening in the chassis can become a potential ignition source (level 2 or 3) and this becomes more likely as the power levels increase. This is why the new chassis jacks for the SpeakOns are now rated at UL 94V-0 flame spread, the hole in the chassis is large enough that the jack acts as a flame spread safeguard.

 

I deal with this stuff every day in my regulatory engineering work (I'm a product development engineer, an EE by education, but do regulatory engineering about half time). It's unbelievably complex, I'm constantly working out the engineering justifications and solutions as well as interpretations in order to comply with the safety and EMC regulations as well as working with the test lab engineers on what are reasonable interpretations for the regulations as they apply to different products. It's anything but black and white.

[Stub Mandrel]

Well given the number of fires caused by inadequate speaker connections I'm not surprised action had to be taken...

[agedhorse]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Well given the number of fires caused by inadequate speaker connections I'm not surprised action had to be taken...

It’s the EU that are driving these changes. It is what it is, it’s actually very minor compared with some of the other items in the regulations that we have to design around. 

[Chienmortbb]

On 26/08/2023 at 00:30, agedhorse said:

Under 25 watts probably isn't going to trigger anything but as power increases you begin to run into limits of connectors under the abnormal conditions clauses. This covers things like maximum continuous power until temperatures stabilize, 1/8-rated power into 1/2 the lowest rated load impedance, 1/8-power into a shorted load, etc. (the amp can fail under these tests but can't create a hazard while doing so). 

Interesting that you say 25 watts when many guitar amps and a few valve/ tube amps for bass are rated at 30 watts. I will admit that I do not know the original spec on Jacks and Plugs  but I know many are rated at 500mA @ 50V. That ties in with 25 watts. 
 

I have seen it argued that if the electric guitar were invented today, the Jack would not be the connector of choice. The case for a different connector between amp and speaker is even more compelling. I must admit that I had never considered flammability as an issue. 
 

As a self-confessed nerd, I did consider buying the IEC standard but at just over £400/$450US it is a luxury I can do without. That would go a long way to a Mesa Subway😀.

 

I have seen it suggested that not using compliant equipment might cause problems with Public Liability Insurance(I don’t know what it is called in the USA). Have you heard ?

[Woodinblack]

I think the jack socket is an ideal socket for a guitar, almost what it is designed for, the ease of plugging / unplugging. It certainly isn't something you would pick for a speaker