Basses for sale on Basschat - post Brexit.

[meterman]

2 hours ago, G-Lo said:

All quite a shame but... surely a private individual selling a pedal just posts it? Sure I have the hassle this end, do you guys have more to deal with posting as a private individual?

Yeah, in France it’s not straightforward at all if you’re sending anything to a country that requires you to fill out customs forms or anything requiring tracking.

 

I recently sent some old master tapes to a company in the UK that specializes in transferring analog to digital. They had to be sent by recorded delivery and because they were going to the UK and it was basically a business transaction I had to fill in customs forms. The process took about 40 minutes. Five-part forms requiring signatures, email addresses, phone numbers, full contact details, all had to be typed in on an ATM style touchscreen machine that prints the shipping stickers and tracking receipts that then need to be verified and applied to the parcel by a staff member before it can be posted. Imagine spending 40 minutes in the Post Office on every parcel you need to send... it’s a hassle doing it once, I wouldn’t want to do it regularly, I don’t think I could afford the Nurofen.
 

My Reverb shipping destinations now are EU countries only and it’s much easier just to deal with couriers. I know France is particularly notorious for bureaucracy and form-filling but it’s always been like that here. Some countries are even worse. The UK is so much easier by comparison. But from France, posting stuff anywhere outside the EU is a pain in the derrière.

Edited August 8, 2023 by meterman

[mikegatward]

21 hours ago, Doctor J said:

It has killed the FS section, for me, to the extent that I rarely bother looking anymore. Aside from adding 25% to the price of everything, I think often sellers are less inclined to go through the paperwork hassle, too, and ship outside the UK.

 

I think there's validity in a section in FS for EU-based ads but perhaps not an appetite to create another sub-section in there?

Totally agree - or at least be able to filter ads based on location

[tauzero]

30 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Although that is OT, considering this is about sales of basses on BC, so not commercial stuff, but the taxes / duties is no issue at all. The reason my wife cannot export to the EU any more is the codes and regions of manufacture stuff - there frankly aren't enough hours in her day with everything else she is doing to come up with the paperwork to export stuff to the EU, even if she could understand it, so it is not something she can do any longer. She could get someone else to do it, but she doesn't earn enough to make it worthwhile. She doesn't get too much money, she is a small online shop, but it was 1/4 of her business, and her customers were very good so it is quite sad.

 

Continuing on this tangent, prior to my retirement I was working for a pharmaceutical wholesaler with depots in both GB and NI. The consequence of the WA was that NI was no longer to be supplied from GB but from the EU instead. I was having a little look at the regulations, as you do when it's possible that some system changes might come your way, and there are hundreds if not thousands of codes to categorise items, and we had 36,000 different product lines. That would have been fun for someone to do the admin. It was rather simpler prior to then, when staff at one of the GB depots would simply load up the lorry and send it to NI.

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Although that is OT, considering this is about sales of basses on BC, so not commercial stuff, but the taxes / duties is no issue at all. The reason my wife cannot export to the EU any more is the codes and regions of manufacture stuff - there frankly aren't enough hours in her day with everything else she is doing to come up with the paperwork to export stuff to the EU, even if she could understand it, so it is not something she can do any longer. She could get someone else to do it, but she doesn't earn enough to make it worthwhile. She doesn't get too much money, she is a small online shop, but it was 1/4 of her business, and her customers were very good so it is quite sad.

 

This.

 

I spent the best part of what should have been one of my days off at the weekend sorting out the various product codes, getting my EORI code, so I could send a large box full of specialised printed items to my client's distributor in Belgium. This was a job that had previously taken about 5 minutes of my time to book a collection on line and print out the label. However now no courier service would touch the parcel without all the relevant codes. Even after all that the parcel still managed to disappear somewhere in transit, and it took 6 weeks before the various delivery and customs services would admit it was lost and I could put in my insurance claim. During this time I had to field almost daily calls from both my client and the distributor asking where their labels were. Quite frankly it was an embarrassing mess. My client found another printer who were local to their EU distribution centre who did a less good job for quite a bit more money but at least the items didn't get lost. 

 

I had similar problems with sending my band's CDs and records to EU countries, where roughly 50% of everything I sent out would either disappear or the customs charges would be refused by the recipient resulting in the parcel eventually returning to me in a very second hand condition that was not suitable for sale again. After a year of this I changed all the merch pages so that I would only accept orders from the UK.

[Dazed]

Purely from a personal sales/buying perspective it has killed the market in many hobbies. From here to guitars to watches, classic cars and parts, literally everything has had the same catastrophic result. Europeans don’t want or need the added hassle or expense, it’s simpler to buy from the US as that has an established well practiced customs route. I’m not even sure the U.K. Hmrc has coded and published their updated rates. A major classic car importer I know is still waiting for confirmation on what rates purchasers are meant to be paying on imports, so they have been using the pre brexit rates for the US but for EU countries and hoping for the best, and this is how many years after we “left” ?
It’s been an utter failure. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Dazed

[martthebass]

On 07/08/2023 at 12:52, Doctor J said:

It has killed the FS section, for me, to the extent that I rarely bother looking anymore. Aside from adding 25% to the price of everything, I think often sellers are less inclined to go through the paperwork hassle, too, and ship outside the UK.

 

I think there's validity in a section in FS for EU-based ads but perhaps not an appetite to create another sub-section in there?

On the Astronomy focused site that I partake in (Stargazers Lounge), the sales forum is split into UK and EU/non-UK for just that reason. 

[tauzero]

Just seeing how far out we can get before the ice starts cracking...

[Rich]

Not much further if the overt politics continues. Cut it out please folks.

[binky_bass]

Myself and @Hellzero used to buy/trade/swap basses quite frequently, probably 20+ 'transactions' prior to Brexit. 

 

Post Brexit we've not done any deals for obvious 'prohibitive cost' reasons. It's a real shame as the very specific kind of bass I like is a rare beast and when buying from Europe was an option it meant that the open-to-me market was of course so much bigger with so much more choice. Now, it's a VERY rare day indeed I see anything (UK Based) in the for sale section that interests me and I've completely written off buying anything from Europe due to tax and various other needless complications.

 

Sad times, but hey... 'the people' got what they wanted right? 🤔 

[Doctor J]

To show the needless silliness of it all, there was a very nice ACG (is there any other kind?) for sale in Greece and advertised here, shortly after it all came into effect. I was very interested in it, but beaten to having the cash to buy it by a few days. A few months later, it showed up here again in an ad placed by the buyer who was in the UK. He was selling at a very fair price, given what he had paid plus shipping and had paid import duty and VAT too, but the prospect of paying tax and import duty again on top of all that, to get it back out of the UK, on a bass which hadn't changed a bit in the few months, brought a nicely priced instrument into the realms of completely uncompetitively priced, and it was all just in additional taxes.

[BigRedX]

I don't have a problem with import taxes and VAT. IT's been an accepted part of buying from outside of the EU in the past, and I have probably bought more musical instruments from the US and Japan than I had from the EU. From my PoV I just have to accept that everything I buy from abroad will incur VAT (and import duty depending on the price).

 

What I do have a problem with is the increased unreliability of shipping for anything coming into or leaving the UK and the increased administration/paperwork for anyone sending stuff abroad.

 

@Steve Browning who hopefully has the relevant information: Are all these import/export item codes and EORI numbers something that was in the pipeline anyway for international shipping, or was it specifically triggered by the UK's leaving the EU?

 

Even the mighty Thomann aren't immune from these problems, because while they may have sorted out the calculation and payment of VAT and import charges at source they are still insisting on using DHL for UK deliveries and returns, when it has been proven numerous times that the UK part of the organisation are simply not up to the job.

[Steve Browning]

On 08/08/2023 at 08:44, prowla said:

There were a couple of half-baked aspects of the ready-baked deal, two of which affect musicians:

• Access for Touring bands - this needs to be sorted out, but perhaps is a thread in its own right.
• VAT & duties on used kit - this is not acceptable IMHO; why should individuals flogging s/h kit be taxed?

The taxes on new kit should be similar to before; it's just where they're collected which has changed:

• VAT is charged once (ie. you do not pay both EU + UK VAT).
• Import duties are not payable on EU-manufactured kit.
• Import duties are applied to overseas imports, but they were anyway.
• Bigger companies (eg. Thomann) handle the taxes for you, so it's invisible.

Caveats:

• If you are dealing with a smaller company, they may not be geared up to handle the tax and so it'll be levied at the point of entry to the UK.
• The courier companies will handle tax at the point of entry, but they may charge a processing fee of £10-20 for doing so.
• If you run a smaller company, then there is new admin overhead in processing taxes/duties; I would've thought this could be automated and I guess there are programs to handle it (or it could be handled in a fairly simple spreadsheet).

Other factors:

• Covid has arguably bumped up the prices of items as people have had money to spend and nothing to do.
• The war in Ukraine has bumped up prices of everything and inflation is much higher than pre-Brexit.
• Interest rates have gone up significantly, affecting the prices of everything.
• The OPEC cartel has raised the price of oil, which increases transport costs.
• There has been some opportunistic price-gouging by manufacturers & suppliers.

Me, I have to say I mostly bought in-UK anyway, as shipping costs could be a bit pricey pre-Brexit.

 

There has been an extension of the accompanied musical instrument rules and you can travel with an instrument and the means for it to make a noise. A band travelling in a van with their kit should be OK.

 

I'm sure you know what you meant but it is the buyer being taxed. Not the flogger. 

 

Additionally, very little of what we would buy has its origins in the EU.

[Steve Browning]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

I don't have a problem with import taxes and VAT. IT's been an accepted part of buying from outside of the EU in the past, and I have probably bought more musical instruments from the US and Japan than I had from the EU. From my PoV I just have to accept that everything I buy from abroad will incur VAT (and import duty depending on the price).

 

What I do have a problem with is the increased unreliability of shipping for anything coming into or leaving the UK and the increased administration/paperwork for anyone sending stuff abroad.

 

@Steve Browning who hopefully has the relevant information: Are all these import/export item codes and EORI numbers something that was in the pipeline anyway for international shipping, or was it specifically triggered by the UK's leaving the EU?

 

Even the mighty Thomann aren't immune from these problems, because while they may have sorted out the calculation and payment of VAT and import charges at source they are still insisting on using DHL for UK deliveries and returns, when it has been proven numerous times that the UK part of the organisation are simply not up to the job.

Oops. I was responding as you were posting! I'll reply to this post in a bit. 

[prowla]

1 hour ago, Steve Browning said:

 

There has been an extension of the accompanied musical instrument rules and you can travel with an instrument and the means for it to make a noise. A band travelling in a van with their kit should be OK.

 

I'm sure you know what you meant but it is the buyer being taxed. Not the flogger. 

 

Additionally, very little of what we would buy has its origins in the EU.

Great - I missed the travelling musician rules update - thanks!

Yes, I did mean the buyer! 🙂

Yes regarding non-EU manufactured kit; it just means it's more expensive to buy from box-shifters there.

Now, whether UK-based companies treat that as an opportunity or not is a question only they can answer.

[Steve Browning]

1 hour ago, prowla said:

Great - I missed the travelling musician rules update - thanks!

Yes, I did mean the buyer! 🙂

Yes regarding non-EU manufactured kit; it just means it's more expensive to buy from box-shifters there.

Now, whether UK-based companies treat that as an opportunity or not is a question only they can answer.

There's a very good video on YouTube by a guy who explains it very well, and attaches links to the EU and UK legislation that he suggests you print and carry with you. More detailed information doesn't always get to the coal face quickly. I'll find the link when I'm not on my phone. 

[Steve Browning]

All goods that are imported/exported make use of commodity codes. They are harmonised across most of the world and are used to determine the rate of Duty on goods upon import. The exporter will usually be the one allocating the code on the transit documents. In the case of sending anything out of the UK, I would expect the carrier to do that job, based upon the description of the goods you provide.

 

Eg:

 

85180000

Microphones and stands therefor; loudspeakers, whether or not mounted in their enclosures; headphones and earphones, whether or not combined with a microphone, and sets consisting of a microphone and one or more loudspeakers; audio-frequency electric amplifiers; electric sound amplifier sets :   (TN701)

85190000

Sound recording or sound reproducing apparatus :   (TN701)

 

Musical instruments, the sound of which is produced, or must be amplified, electrically (for example, organs, guitars, accordions) :   (TN701) 

9207 90 10

-  -  Guitars 

 

The EORI number is used by VAT registered businesses and so would not usually be required if you're just selling basses you have used yourself. In most countries, the EORI number is based on the VAT number itself.

[Steve Browning]

18 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

There's a very good video on YouTube by a guy who explains it very well, and attaches links to the EU and UK legislation that he suggests you print and carry with you. More detailed information doesn't always get to the coal face quickly. I'll find the link when I'm not on my phone. 

 

Here's the video about taking amps etc on tour to Europe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSzelR8A1pU&list=PLuG8N8pz1_4b-mgb79GIpKAe_NMS68gYY&index=3&ab_channel=UkEuropeartswork

[BigRedX]

13 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

All goods that are imported/exported make use of commodity codes. They are harmonised across most of the world and are used to determine the rate of Duty on goods upon import. The exporter will usually be the one allocating the code on the transit documents. In the case of sending anything out of the UK, I would expect the carrier to do that job, based upon the description of the goods you provide.

 

Eg:

 

85180000

Microphones and stands therefor; loudspeakers, whether or not mounted in their enclosures; headphones and earphones, whether or not combined with a microphone, and sets consisting of a microphone and one or more loudspeakers; audio-frequency electric amplifiers; electric sound amplifier sets :   (TN701)

85190000

Sound recording or sound reproducing apparatus :   (TN701)

 

Musical instruments, the sound of which is produced, or must be amplified, electrically (for example, organs, guitars, accordions) :   (TN701) 

9207 90 10

-  -  Guitars 

 

The EORI number is used by VAT registered businesses and so would not usually be required if you're just selling basses you have used yourself. In most countries, the EORI number is based on the VAT number itself.

 

Thanks.

 

However as you say in the past the carrier used to do all of this for you based on your description of the contents of the parcel. Now not so much. This all appears to have started at the beginning of 2021, and for anyone coming across it, it can be a serious put off. 

 

There are also problems with VAT for private sales. If you sell through one of the big sites like Amazon or eBay, this appears to be handled for you. Last time I posted a Bandcamp sale to the EU, it cause no end of problems at the Post Office because Bandcamp wasn't on their list. The record ended up being refused by the buyer because they didn't want to pay the VAT on it and was eventually returned to me in a condition that made it impossible to resell. I assume that the postal service goes to the expense of returning items like this because it is cheaper than having to pay out insurance on it, if it was "lost". However for sellers it means that we loose out in both postage and item cost.

 

As a result I won't be sending anything outside of the UK until I know for sure that the situation has significantly improved. 

[Steve Browning]

I don't blame you in the slightest. I have imported stuff from Japan (and the US) in the past but somehow the EU presents a bit of a mental block as the extra 25% is a recent addition, and not something just factored in.

[G-Lo]

On 07/08/2023 at 14:50, BigRedX said:

 

There's increased paper work for senders, customs and shipping delays, and unexpected charges for EU customers who haven't realised the implications of now buying from the UK.

 

After having several items (not musical instruments but part of my day job business activities) go astray in customs or be refused by the recipients (not necessarily the customer depending on circumstances) because they didn't want to pay import and customs charges, I had to suspend a rather lucrative part of my business because it was no longer cost effective for me to produce the items here in the UK and then ship them to an EU country for distribution; and that decision ultimately cost me all business from one of my better clients.

 

I'm sure that if your business is of a sufficient size you can get around these problems but for smaller concerns and private sellers it has turned out to be far more trouble then it is worth.

 

7 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

Thanks.

 

However as you say in the past the carrier used to do all of this for you based on your description of the contents of the parcel. Now not so much. This all appears to have started at the beginning of 2021, and for anyone coming across it, it can be a serious put off. 

 

There are also problems with VAT for private sales. If you sell through one of the big sites like Amazon or eBay, this appears to be handled for you. Last time I posted a Bandcamp sale to the EU, it cause no end of problems at the Post Office because Bandcamp wasn't on their list. The record ended up being refused by the buyer because they didn't want to pay the VAT on it and was eventually returned to me in a condition that made it impossible to resell. I assume that the postal service goes to the expense of returning items like this because it is cheaper than having to pay out insurance on it, if it was "lost". However for sellers it means that we loose out in both postage and item cost.

 

As a result I won't be sending anything outside of the UK until I know for sure that the situation has significantly improved. 

Okay so this clears up my confusion. In Cyprus where I live the post office will charge the buyer. The onus is on you to show up with a receipt and settle up. I don't know why anyone would be surprised or refuse to pay the charges as they're really not the seller's problem.

So this is why a  lot of folks are cagey about sending a private sale to Europe. A shame.

[lemmywinks]

On 08/08/2023 at 10:05, Woodinblack said:

 

Although that is OT, considering this is about sales of basses on BC, so not commercial stuff, but the taxes / duties is no issue at all. The reason my wife cannot export to the EU any more is the codes and regions of manufacture stuff - there frankly aren't enough hours in her day with everything else she is doing to come up with the paperwork to export stuff to the EU, even if she could understand it, so it is not something she can do any longer. She could get someone else to do it, but she doesn't earn enough to make it worthwhile. She doesn't get too much money, she is a small online shop, but it was 1/4 of her business, and her customers were very good so it is quite sad.

 

 

Even for the company I work for which only uses a handful of codes it can still be a ballache, especially when some countries decide they are no longer accepting certain codes and your shipment gets returned to you. We have to use a broker for things like that which is another expense, for small businesses choosing between more overheads or increased workload has no good side.

 

We export a lot worldwide but we lost a lot of European trade straight away and what used to be a typically fast shipping process is now much more complex with every item having to be described down to its component parts, value etc.

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, G-Lo said:

Okay so this clears up my confusion. In Cyprus where I live the post office will charge the buyer. The onus is on you to show up with a receipt and settle up. I don't know why anyone would be surprised or refuse to pay the charges as they're really not the seller's problem.

So this is why a  lot of folks are cagey about sending a private sale to Europe. A shame.

 

I expect it is the same everywhere in the EU. The problem seems to stem from the fact that after many years of not having to pay VAT and import duty on items from the UK, some  EU-based buyers have still not realised that things have changed, hence the number of parcels I've had refused and returned because they don't want to pay any additional charges.

 

Hopefully in a few more years it won't come as quite a surprise and I can start thinking about selling outside of the UK again.

[G-Lo]

4 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

I expect it is the same everywhere in the EU. The problem seems to stem from the fact that after many years of not having to pay VAT and import duty on items from the UK, some  EU-based buyers have still not realised that things have changed, hence the number of parcels I've had refused and returned because they don't want to pay any additional charges.

 

Hopefully in a few more years it won't come as quite a surprise and I can start thinking about selling outside of the UK again.

Hopefully. And I'll check with the seller if they're happy, and spell it out in writing and we'll be fine

[matski]

I'm English, but left the UK for work 20 odd years ago and am still living in the EU. Before Brexit I bought and sold quite a few items through the BC marketplace, but these days I merely peruse the for sale forums wistfully. Import costs are the killer for me, so now if I actually want to buy something it's from EU sellers only.

 

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, matski said:

 Import costs are the killer for me, so now if I actually want to buy something it's from EU sellers only.

 

Import costs are not bad really. If you wanted to buy a bass in 2015, if it cost £1000 that would have been €1430. Now that would be €1,158+20% vat, that would be €1389, cheaper than it used to be from your direction!