Circle of 4ths and 5ths

[TheGreek]

Mark Smith posted a video of how to learn these in 20mins. 

 

I hadn't bothered before so thought I would. 

 

Now I've learnt both I can't see what use they are if you already know how to find any given note on a fretboard. 

 

When do these two exercises ever come into use?

[itu]

Transcribe a score?

[Dad3353]

9 minutes ago, TheGreek said:

... When do these two exercises ever come into use?

 

Composing..? 

[Stub Mandrel]

I think directly in terms of moving around on the neck.

 

E A D G C F Bb Eb Ab C# F# B .

 

All worked out by mentally moving across the strings...

[TimR]

How many #s and bs.

 

C  - 0

G - 1

D - 2

A - 3

E - 4

B - 5

F#/Gb - 6

Db -5

Ab - 4

Eb - 3

Bb - 2

F - 1

[dclaassen]

I find it less useful on bass, where you use essentially the same patterns moving up, down or sideways depending on mode and root note. More important for wind and keyboard players who don’t have our advantage.

[itu]

1 hour ago, TimR said:

How many #s and bs.

 

C  - 0

G - 1

D - 2

A - 3

E - 4

B - 5

F#/Gb - 6

Db -5

Ab - 4

Eb - 3

Bb - 2

F - 1

The former is G D A E B F twice on a row.

 

This is the system to remember the sharps and flats in front of the scores.

 

# -> . . . . <- b

F C G D A E B

[BigRedX]

Got to say the whole thing baffles me to.

 

None of the "examples" on here have made it any clearer IMO.

 

I never transcribe a score because the only music I play is my own. 

 

And when I'm composing I just pick notes that sound good to me. And note choice is as much dependant upon the sound of the instrument playing those notes as it is on the actual note itself.

[ahpook]

12 notes ? All 5ths ?

 

That's 2 and 2/5.

 

See, easy ! Next !

 

[Boodang]

Number of sharps and flats. Good to know when you're working with a keyboard player, that way you can pick a key for the song that's the most awkward for him/her to play.

[chris_b]

Most bass playing is about patterns. If you know your patterns it makes the lines you play easier to create and more effective.

[itu]

We have here three guys with over 2000 "patterns" to learn and play. Just check @tomread, @ChrisDev, and @TKenrick among other active transcribers. Their work is just fabulous!

[ambient]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

Most bass playing is about patterns. If you know your patterns it makes the lines you play easier to create and more effective.

It’s better - in my opinion- to know your notes, scales, chords etc.

 

If I’m practicing a scale I don’t go root then up a tone and then another etc. I’ll play the root note then the 2nd might be an octave away. I’ll play the notes in random areas. This I think helps you know the scale and your way around the instrument.

[TimR]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Got to say the whole thing baffles me to.

 

None of the "examples" on here have made it any clearer IMO.

 

I never transcribe a score because the only music I play is my own. 

 

And when I'm composing I just pick notes that sound good to me. And note choice is as much dependant upon the sound of the instrument playing those notes as it is on the actual note itself.

 

If you don't know any theory then it's no use to you as it's quite an advanced level. It doesn't really have any bearing on everyday playing. 

[Paolo85]

17 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I think directly in terms of moving around on the neck.

 

E A D G C F Bb Eb Ab C# F# B .

 

All worked out by mentally moving across the strings...

 

This. I am not sure I have seen that video specifically but I have seen many Mark Smith videos including on the circle of fourths.

He uses the circle of fourths to teach the neck. But that's not random and not just because it moves through all 12 notes. 

Chord progressions moving up in fourth are extremely common, if not the most common, in jazz - and I understand in pop as well they are big deal. Mark's course on walking bass has 90% of the exercised based on II-V-I and I-IV-II-V progressions.

As many have argued, with the bass, unlike with other instruments, there are geometric patterns and one can find the a fourth without even thinking of notes.

Interestingly however, that's not Mark's idea. In his walking bass course (and in all courses) he encourages to also think in terms of notes directly (especially when reaching for a root note, a bit less when moving through chord tones). So I guess it makes sense from his point of view that, if someone has to learn the neck, it's best to do it by using that progression.

I'd add as an aside that, as a person struggling with walking bass, and not being very visual, I have found his approach the easiest so far. It's true that, say, a II-V-I is a simple geometry on the neck. But then when you are moving around the chord tones you have to have in mind multiple shapes at once (where, say, the fifths are, and where the root of the next note is relative to your current root, both up and down. Plus maybe adding an extra steps to where the thirds of the next chord are if one wanted to do an inversion. And if you land on a wrong note none of the geometries applies directly anymore). Just knowing where the note is is easier for me. Linking back to the main issue, if I did known the circle of fourths the way I know ABCD.. (I don't) then maybe I would find myself less often wondering "what was the next chord?" 

 

[TimR]

Just to clarify the circle of 5ths.

 

It's all down to Pythagorus. 

 

If you take the wavelength of a note and break it into half you get a doubling of frequency. That's up an octave.

 

If you take the wavelength of a note and break it into 1/3rds you get an octave and a perfect 5th. This is the first pure harmonic you get.

 

Repeat this 12 times and you get back to your starting note (albeit several octave up).

 

From a C that 5th is a G. 

C major scale has no sharps or flats. G major has one sharp. 

 

4ths is just what happens when you come back down. Or anti clockwise on the wheel.

 

TLDR;

 

As far as an exercise goes, it seems to be a Scott's Bass Lessons thing in order to get you familiar with the fretboard. 

 

You could just learn all the notes one at a time but doing it this way semi-randomises the notes to test you and still ensure you cover all the notes. Imagine learning your tables and then getting someone to test you. They wouldn't just ask you what's 1x2, 2x2, 3x2 etc.

Edited August 19, 2023 by TimR

[Dad3353]

12 hours ago, BigRedX said:

...And when I'm composing I just pick notes that sound good to me. And note choice is as much dependant upon the sound of the instrument playing those notes as it is on the actual note itself.

 

When I'm composing, I'm not often using 'random' notes, looking for one that sounds good. I'm probably not thinking 'notes' at all, usually. I'm looking for motion, transition, joining melodies, arpeggios and sections. For this, amongst other 'tools' such as experience, feeling and luck, I would often call upon the Circle of Fifths to give me a connection. I may not use it, or I may listen to several directions offered by this; I may change tack completely, but it's useful to have this option. Indispensable..? Not at all, but it's an extra string to my bow, which I can use if I want. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Dad3353

[chris_b]

1 hour ago, ambient said:

It’s better - in my opinion- to know your notes, scales, chords etc.

 

I'd do both. The more you know the easier it gets and the more effective your playing becomes.

[tauzero]

On 19/08/2023 at 11:55, Boodang said:

Number of sharps and flats. Good to know when you're working with a keyboard player, that way you can pick a key for the song that's the most awkward for him/her to play.

 

I was really annoyed when the guitarist/singer/songwriter in a previous band decided that he wanted to take a song up a semitone from C. Playing the notes is easy enough but writing out the chord chart was a right pain. Should one be a stickler and only use sharps (and use E# for F and B# for C) or use flats for some which you don't often encounter sharps (eg. Bb rather than A#)? I think I just adopted the system of learning the bloody song.

[TimR]

41 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

I was really annoyed when the guitarist/singer/songwriter in a previous band decided that he wanted to take a song up a semitone from C. Playing the notes is easy enough but writing out the chord chart was a right pain. Should one be a stickler and only use sharps (and use E# for F and B# for C) or use flats for some which you don't often encounter sharps (eg. Bb rather than A#)? I think I just adopted the system of learning the bloody song.

 

Just play it in Db. 

[StickyDBRmf]

We Stick players who are coming from either 4-string or "what's that funny thing you do?" with the standard guitar tuning thingy, the 4ths/5ths is our bible. babble. bubble. THE THING IS. 4ths/5ths. Up the same way coming down. Only in the other direction. Or for that matter, the scales work out the the same way in the other direction.

[StickyDBRmf]

I should have mentioned one of the Stick teachers with published manifestos calls it Frickin'BEADGooC. Get it? FBEADGC and you ad yer #/b's where you need to as you go round in circles.

[JoeEvans]

As a bass player I feel like I'm trying to support the rest of the band without limiting them. I think about the circle of fifths as a measure of whether a note is neutral, allowing other musicians to play whatever they want over it, or specific, defining a particular sound or harmony.

So if you're on a C chord and you play a C under it, that's totally neutral - anyone can play any chord or scale of C over that. Go one step each way and you can add F and G - still very neutral and ok in almost any situation.

One step more and you bring in D and B flat - still quite soft and neutral but starting to pin down the harmonies a bit more. That pattern of C D F G B flat is going to be very familiar and useful to any bassist.

One more step gives you E flat and A and now you're really defining a chord. Next you get E and A flat and now it's going to clash if the guitarist plays the wrong chord, and a horn solo will need to steer clear of certain scales too.

And so it goes on until you reach D flat and F sharp, which clash like hell with almost anything.

Anyway, that's how it feels to me, backed by some science about harmonics etc.

[TimR]

9 minutes ago, JoeEvans said:

As a bass player I feel like I'm trying to support the rest of the band without limiting them. I think about the circle of fifths as a measure of whether a note is neutral, allowing other musicians to play whatever they want over it, or specific, defining a particular sound or harmony.

So if you're on a C chord and you play a C under it, that's totally neutral - anyone can play any chord or scale of C over that. Go one step each way and you can add F and G - still very neutral and ok in almost any situation.

One step more and you bring in D and B flat - still quite soft and neutral but starting to pin down the harmonies a bit more. That pattern of C D F G B flat is going to be very familiar and useful to any bassist.

One more step gives you E flat and A and now you're really defining a chord. Next you get E and A flat and now it's going to clash if the guitarist plays the wrong chord, and a horn solo will need to steer clear of certain scales too.

And so it goes on until you reach D flat and F sharp, which clash like hell with almost anything.

Anyway, that's how it feels to me, backed by some science about harmonics etc.

 

 

If you play a Bb on a C chord you're defining the chord as a m7. That's not particularly neutral. 

G is a 5th which doesn't really make a lot of difference, and F is a perfect 4th so you can play them all day long. 

 

I don't think the circle of 5ths instructs you to anything regards note choice.

[Stub Mandrel]

On 20/08/2023 at 14:58, tauzero said:

 

I was really annoyed when the guitarist/singer/songwriter in a previous band decided that he wanted to take a song up a semitone from C. Playing the notes is easy enough but writing out the chord chart was a right pain. Should one be a stickler and only use sharps (and use E# for F and B# for C) or use flats for some which you don't often encounter sharps (eg. Bb rather than A#)? I think I just adopted the system of learning the bloody song.

 

In that circumstance, I would just move everything up a fret. That's when having a mental picture of how to play various intervals can be more useful than 'knowing the fretboard'.