Circle of 4ths and 5ths

[tauzero]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

In that circumstance, I would just move everything up a fret. That's when having a mental picture of how to play various intervals can be more useful than 'knowing the fretboard'.

 

That doesn't help when writing down what the notes are. "C+1" isn't conventional notation.

[JoeEvans]

9 hours ago, TimR said:

I don't think the circle of 5ths instructs you to anything regards note choice.

My observation is that a flattened 7th is used in a much wider range of chords and contexts than, say, a flat 6th, and that a flat 9th is even more niche. I see the circle of fifths as being the path you travel in as you move away from the root note.

But everyone thinks about this stuff in their own way, luckily, or we'd all end up playing the same stuff which would be tedious as hell.

[TimR]

13 minutes ago, JoeEvans said:

My observation is that a flattened 7th is used in a much wider range of chords and contexts than, say, a flat 6th, and that a flat 9th is even more niche. I see the circle of fifths as being the path you travel in as you move away from the root note.

But everyone thinks about this stuff in their own way, luckily, or we'd all end up playing the same stuff which would be tedious as hell.

 

If you look at the 2 chords either side you get the M m m M M m chords you'd usually play in a piece. But don't think you need a circle of 5ths to work that out. 

 

So for C it shows: C d e F G a, the outlier being the missing b. 

[lowdown]

Learning this kind of theory is not just about where you put your fingers on a fretboard, it's a great aid for ear training.

Hearing a Circle of 4ths/5ths can aid you in hearing chord progressions away from an Instrument.

 

"The circle of fifths can be a very useful tool for ear training, especially for training the ear to recognize chord progressions and key changes.

By listening to the way chords progress around the circle of fifths, you can learn to recognize the patterns that are common to many different types of music."

 

I like this vocal reference for relating to the Circle of 5ths.

"Round, like a circle in a spiral, like a wheel within a wheel - Windmills Of Your Mind".

 

If you can get past the first minute of this blokes irritating introduction, there are some good examples:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

9 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

That doesn't help when writing down what the notes are. "C+1" isn't conventional notation.

 

But if you are only doing it to learn a song, what benefit do you get from transposing the notation for an instrument like a bass that is essentially 'key blind'? (Unless the piece requires open strings in which case detune and play transposed anyway).

[jrixn1]

12 hours ago, JoeEvans said:

So if you're on a C chord and you play a C under it, that's totally neutral - anyone can play any chord or scale of C over that. Go one step each way and you can add F and G - still very neutral and ok in almost any situation.

One step more and you bring in D and B flat - still quite soft and neutral but starting to pin down the harmonies a bit more. That pattern of C D F G B flat is going to be very familiar and useful to any bassist.

One more step gives you E flat and A and now you're really defining a chord. Next you get E and A flat and now it's going to clash if the guitarist plays the wrong chord, and a horn solo will need to steer clear of certain scales too.

 

I have read your post a few times and it doesn't make any sense to me - perhaps I have misunderstood.

 

If the band is playing a song and the current chord is C, you as a bassist can't play the note F here as that will sound like a mistake.  Likewise for playing Bb and Eb - those notes aren't even diatonic.

 

Then you say that playing an E is going to clash - but if anything that will sound quite good, because you're creating the first inversion.  An example is in "Dancing Queen", when they sing "You can dance, you can jive, having the time of your life" - on the word "life", Rutger on bass plays D# when the chord is B7.  Sounds great, and leads to the next chord (D) really nicely.

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, JoeEvans said:

My observation is that a flattened 7th is used in a much wider range of chords and contexts than, say, a flat 6th, and that a flat 9th is even more niche. I see the circle of fifths as being the path you travel in as you move away from the root note.

But everyone thinks about this stuff in their own way, luckily, or we'd all end up playing the same stuff which would be tedious as hell.

 

If root-fifth is the next step from just hitting the root, root-fifth, flat-seventh, octave is the next note group that works over MOST chords including both major and minor. If I have to improvise for an unfamiliar song, it's what I start using until I have sussed the key/mode.

[Stub Mandrel]

4 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

Rutger on bass plays D# when the chord is B7.  Sounds great, and leads to the next chord (D) really nicely.

 

That's an example of creating a tension then resolving it, usually described as 'leading into' a chord. The circle of fifths theory tells us nothing about this.

[jrixn1]

1 minute ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

That's an example of creating a tension then resolving it, usually described as 'leading into' a chord. The circle of fifths theory tells us nothing about this.

 

Yep absolutely - I'm just trying to understand what he's saying about an E note being a clash on a C chord.

[Stub Mandrel]

6 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

If the band is playing a song and the current chord is C, you as a bassist can't play the note F here as that will sound like a mistake.  Likewise for playing Bb and Eb - those notes aren't ev

 

Usually true as c-f is up a fourth. The simple rule is up a fifth, down a fourth. The f will sound dissonant against the e in Cmaj but may be OK against the Eb in Cm. YMMV.*

 

 

 

 

*Your music may vary.

[Stub Mandrel]

1 minute ago, jrixn1 said:

 

Yep absolutely - I'm just trying to understand what he's saying about an E note being a clash on a C chord.

Sorry! Obviously e sounds fine over Cmaj.

[tauzero]

3 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

But if you are only doing it to learn a song, what benefit do you get from transposing the notation for an instrument like a bass that is essentially 'key blind'? (Unless the piece requires open strings in which case detune and play transposed anyway).

 

It would be a bit silly to try to learn a song from the wrong notes. It was so I could have a record of what the right notes were for future reference.

[jassthebass]

IMO it's just a way of presenting information. What you do with the info is up to you, so to speak.

 

A few years ago I watched a youtube video that was quite informative.

 

The Circle of Fifths made clear - YouTube

 

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by jassthebass

[lowdown]

3 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

 

Then you say that playing an E is going to clash - but if anything that will sound quite good, because you're creating the first inversion.  An example is in "Dancing Queen", when they sing "You can dance, you can jive, having the time of your life" - on the word "life", Rutger on bass plays D# when the chord is B7.  Sounds great, and leads to the next chord (D) really nicely.

 

In your example it works nicely and sounds unusual/different because it's leading you somewhere different to the norm.

Most common times in the key of 'A', it would/could lead to an E(7), or any chord with an E in the Bass for that matter.

When I say different, in context, it's not really (although it's not a regular scale note). The D# Bass is part of a decending line to get back to the key centre (A). 

Although you probably know all that, but some may not (I'm not being condescending, by the way).

 

 

[wateroftyne]

Add me to the 'Eh?' pile.

 

Years ago, a pianist pal of mine insisted spending a few hours explaining it to me.

 

He was completely baffled as to why, at the end of it, I didn't act like like radiant beams were descending from the sky accompanied by an angelic chorus.

 

I'd think I forgot it all within ten minutes.

[jrixn1]

1 hour ago, lowdown said:

In your example it works nicely and sounds unusual/different because it's leading you somewhere different to the norm.

Most common times in the key of 'A', it would/could lead to an E(7), or any chord with an E in the Bass for that matter.

When I say different, in context, it's not really (although it's not a regular scale note). The D# Bass is part of a decending line to get back to the key centre (A). 

 

 

Yes, it's a beautiful line!  However I think I've distracted things by mentioning the leading line - which was really just an aside and not the point I was trying to make, which was that a chord with the 3rd in the bass is likely to sound good, not bad.

 

Perhaps here is a better example, which isn't part of a leading line and is your bog-standard ii V I (there's your cycle of fifths).  James Jamerson on Reach Out I'll Be There:

 

 

In the third bar, he delays the root for a bar with the first inversion - sounds amazing.  But JoeEvans reckons this is a clash, which is a part of his post I don't understand.

 

[TimR]

8 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

Perhaps here is a better example, which isn't part of a leading line and is your bog-standard ii V I (there's your cycle of fifths).  James Jamerson on Reach Out I'll Be There:

 

Yes. That's what I was saying. Circle of 5ths for Gb shows:

 

Db Gb B

Bbm Ebm Abm

 

IV I V

iii iv ii

 

[JoeEvans]

18 hours ago, TimR said:

 

 

[JoeEvans]

Oops - don't know how to delete that!

Anyway, what I meant wasn't that an E clashes with a C, but that it's more harmonically specific than a G, F or D. It pins down the chord to a major, whereas a baseline with just C, F and G works with both minor and major chords.

In my mind as you work around the cycle of fifths in either direction from the root note, the notes become more harmonically specific, so they will only sit well against more niche chords, whereas closer to the tonic, they sit with more mainstream chords.

[JoeEvans]

The Billy Jean baseline, for example, would sound great under loads of different chords and scales, because in my terms it's very 'open', just 1, 4, 5, flat 7.

[lowdown]

1 hour ago, TimR said:

 

Yes. That's what I was saying. Circle of 5ths for Gb shows:

 

Db  Gb  B  Cb

Bbm Ebm Abm

 

IV I V

iii iv ii

 

 

 

Sorry, I couldn't help it. **

[Stub Mandrel]

10 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

It would be a bit silly to try to learn a song from the wrong notes. It was so I could have a record of what the right notes were for future reference.

 

Not trying to be dense, but why not just teanscribe in C and add a note to play half a tone up?

[tauzero]

54 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Not trying to be dense, but why not just teanscribe in C and add a note to play half a tone up?

 

Because I find it easier to play the notes that are written than to transcribe on the fly. I'd already learnt it in the original key so writing it in the new key reinforced the fact that it was in the new key and hopefully stopped me straying back to the original key.

[Stub Mandrel]

On 23/08/2023 at 00:50, tauzero said:

 

Because I find it easier to play the notes that are written than to transcribe on the fly. I'd already learnt it in the original key so writing it in the new key reinforced the fact that it was in the new key and hopefully stopped me straying back to the original key.

 

Fair enough, but I'm not crazy! Someone posted notation for Dancing Queen on Facebook yesterday... with a note to play it a semitone flat!

[tauzero]

19 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

Fair enough, but I'm not crazy! Someone posted notation for Dancing Queen on Facebook yesterday... with a note to play it a semitone flat!

 

Presumably that's the punishment for playing Dancing Queen, although I would have thought that having to listen to it would be punishment enough. And if the image of Theresa May doing her moves should come into one's head unbidden, so much the worse. Pass the mind bleach.