As if there was any doubt...

[Dad3353]

BBC Four, the National Youth Orchestra are playing right now some rather more contemporary pieces (Over 160 musicians; that's a lot, even for philharmonic orchestras..!). The key word is 'Youth'; there seems to be about an equal spread of men and women, giving a lie to the notion that women aren't interested in playing music.
On another note: I've no way of knowing for sure, but statistically, they would be about 10% of left-handed players performing. I've not yet spotted a left-handed instrument, though. Interesting..? I think so... 

[Waddo Soqable]

4 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

BBC Four, the National Youth Orchestra are playing right now some rather more contemporary pieces (Over 160 musicians; that's a lot, even for philharmonic orchestras..!). The key word is 'Youth'; there seems to be about an equal spread of men and women, giving a lie to the notion that women aren't interested in playing music.
On another note: I've no way of knowing for sure, but statistically, they would be about 10% of left-handed players performing. I've not yet spotted a left-handed instrument, though. Interesting..? I think so... 

Hmm.. I'd say there's likely more female musicians in "classical" orchestras than men, certainly that's the impression I've always had since I first witnessed those kind of "gigs" many decades ago.. 

 

So you reckon the left handers have to learn right handed in this kind of sphere then? 

[Richard R]

8 minutes ago, Waddo Soqable said:

So you reckon the left handers have to learn right handed in this kind of sphere then? 

 

I always understood that was exactly the case.  If you have a line of cellists playing right handed, and one in the middle left handed, then there is a high chance of elbow- bumping etc. So everyone plays right-handed.

Of course, it could be something more, sinister... 

[Dad3353]

38 minutes ago, Waddo Soqable said:

Hmm.. I'd say there's likely more female musicians in "classical" orchestras than men, certainly that's the impression I've always had since I first witnessed those kind of "gigs" many decades ago.. 

 

So you reckon the left handers have to learn right handed in this kind of sphere then? 

 

Yes indeed. I've seen since looking hard after past debates on the subject, that it's possible to buy a left-handed piano, but I still stubbornly maintain that, except maybe for a very few hard-line cases, it's perfectly possible to play any instrument as right-handed (or I would prefer to say 'normal'...), especially if starting out on the instrument for the very first time. I know from personal experience. of hard 'lefties' playing 'normal' guitar (my own brother, for one of many...). I know also that it's controversial, and that there are some that will violently oppose the notion, even as far as claiming some sort of cabal or oppression, but, to me, the case is proven in seeing these huge formations mastering their 'normal' instruments. Maybe one has to start young, s'all..? 

[TheGreek]

52 minutes ago, Richard R said:

 

I always understood that was exactly the case.  If you have a line of cellists playing right handed, and one in the middle left handed, then there is a high chance of elbow- bumping etc. So everyone plays right-handed.

Of course, it could be something more, sinister... 

 

Intended use of the word "sinister"??

 

If so, very clever. 

[Waddo Soqable]

Well greatest respect to them then, I can do absolutely nothing left handed, even write in the crudest fashion. 

Difficult to say though if you'd been conditioned from an early age who knows.. 

[Woodinblack]

3 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

On another note: I've no way of knowing for sure, but statistically, they would be about 10% of left-handed players performing. I've not yet spotted a left-handed instrument, though. Interesting..? I think so... 

 

How do you know statistically there would be 10%? There may be 10% in the general population, but maybe if they can't play their instruments left handed due to the rules of orchestra, they are more excluded from that sphere and less represented?

[Dad3353]

13 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

How do you know statistically there would be 10%? There may be 10% in the general population, but maybe if they can't play their instruments left handed due to the rules of orchestra, they are more excluded from that sphere and less represented?

 

4 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

... I've no way of knowing for sure ...

 

[Gasman]

Although I’m right handed, I’ve always been more dexterous using a shovel in a sinister way...

[Downunderwonder]

8 hours ago, Waddo Soqable said:

Well greatest respect to them then, I can do absolutely nothing left handed, even write in the crudest fashion. 

Difficult to say though if you'd been conditioned from an early age who knows.. 

Methinks you forgot about your fretting the bass?

 

I started on violin. From memory had it been the convention to do it ^lefty^ it would have been no less difficult. Both hands have a lot to do in the way of fine motor control.

 

I tried bowing my acoustic bass the other day. Did not compute thanks to the action being 'anticlockwise' from the violin. One day I will have to spend a whole weekend getting to grips with it.

 

If you don't believe me try getting your violin playing mate to play it reversed in their lap. Not many would produce any song.

[Downunderwonder]

6 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

statistically there would be 10%? There may be 10% in the general population

Actually I believe lefthandedness is a leading indicator of musicality so would be higher than the gen pop rate.

[Oomo]

As a lefty, I've always been a bit annoyed by the right handed bias in musical instruments and orchestras.

 

We've got the technology and manufacturing capability today to adapt to the needs of an individual. Suffer from back issues? Ok, we can make something chambered and light. Shoulder range issues? Ok, here's a short scale. Can't see well? Wear these glasses. Trouble hearing? Try this hearing aid. Left handed? Suck it up and learn right handed like the rest of us.

 

I can't say if it applies to music, but lots of studies were done and showed detrimental effects from forcing left handed kids to write right handed - they learned to do it fine, but the process was stressful and difficult, causing other secondary issues (e.g. slower learning/development, anxiety).

 

Another interesting bit of research (though again can't say if it applies to musical instruments) was in looking at brain activity using fmri in leftys who learned to do something right handed.

 

Exactly the same regions on the left side of the brain lit up as a right handed person doing the same activity. But a big difference was that there was also activity of the right side of the brain that was being actively suppressed - i.e. even when doing an activity right handed, their "left handed" part of the brain still wanted to do it, and had to be suppressed so the "right handed" hemisphere could take over.

 

Not sure what my point was, but I found it interesting 😁 I guess just that learning an instrument is hard enough already, so the more barriers to it we can get rid of, and the fewer people excluded from it due to not fitting the default, the better.

[Doctor J]

Clearly a lefty cymbal set

[BigRedX]

I'm partially left handed in that I do some things left handed and some things right handed. Learnt to write right handed and while that might be due to when I learnt at school (in the early 60s) I can distinctly remember that I had classmates who wrote left handed although the contortions that they put themselves through in order not to smudge what they had written did make me think that made learning to write right handed might overall be an easier option. Out of Interest for languages that are written right to left is there a larger proportion of left-handed people in their populations?

 

When I first picked up a guitar my natural inclination was to pick it up "left handed". However it was obvious that this was the wrong way round. When I did start to learn to play, it was finger-style "folk guitar" which meant that I needed to be equally proficient with both hands, and since the guitar I learnt on was designed and strung for right-handed playing, I learned that way. In retrospect I'm glad I did, because it has opened up a far larger range of guitars and basses to me than if I could only play left handed.

 

There is at least one luthier who won't make left-handed instruments because his right-handedness makes it impossible to feel for the fine tuning needed to complete a left-handed custom instrument to the standard he wants for something with his name on.

[Waddo Soqable]

2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Methinks you forgot about your fretting the bass?

 

I started on violin. From memory had it been the convention to do it ^lefty^ it would have been no less difficult. Both hands have a lot to do in the way of fine motor control.

 

I tried bowing my acoustic bass the other day. Did not compute thanks to the action being 'anticlockwise' from the violin. One day I will have to spend a whole weekend getting to grips with it.

 

If you don't believe me try getting your violin playing mate to play it reversed in their lap. Not many would produce any song.

I do take your point about the fretting hand, you're doing more complex stuff with it than you're doing with your "master" RH, esp with something 6 stringed. 

When I've flipped a bass the other way as an experiment my otherwise dextrous right hand becomes fairly hopeless! 

No doubt you can train or condition people particularly if you start young, but I'd agree with the post earlier that it's very wrong to force right handedness on people. 

[velvetkevorkian]

No idea about the handedness debate but IME there is very little about age-group classical ensembles that is representative of the wider population --  you're largely selecting for who showed more "promise" at a very young age, and children with more affluent parents are at a massive advantage. Not sure if that makes it more likely that left-handed children are more able to adapt at that age or are filtered out.

[G-Lo]

So, like mentioned earlier I did have a friend in school who broke his arm and had to learn to write left handed at age 10. It's possible, what I wonder is if that affects creativity. I'm firmly right handed BUT I cant play backgammon right handed, always been a lefty on backgammon and that's the only thng I'm lefthanded on. Moreover, it's bizarrely impossible to play right handed. I've often wondered if it's a symptom of using a different brain hemisphere, and following on would it affect one's creativity if they were to switch hands on their instrument?

[tauzero]

I did a little duckduckgoing on the subject, and there were a few answers on Quora from orchestral string players. They all said that lefties learnt to play right-handed with very rare exceptions - two of them cited one violinist who played leftie because he was missing a finger on his left hand, Rudolf Kolisch. https://www.quora.com/Do-orchestras-require-all-string-players-to-play-as-if-right-handed-or-do-left-handed-players-have-freedom-to-choose-to-reverse-their-playing-style-if-they-so-desire?share=1

 

Having once got as far as scraping out Twinkle Twinkle Little Star on violin, I wonder whether left-handers playing right-handed would be at an advantage, as they would have more dexterity in the "fretting" hand, leaving their other hand to bow with sincerity*.

 

*Spot the false equivalence.

[TheGreek]

It's interesting that we haven't had any input from @Happy Jack who I've seen playing @Silvia Bluejay's lefties.

[Downunderwonder]

3 hours ago, Oomo said:

As a lefty, I've always been a bit annoyed by the right handed bias in musical instruments and orchestras.

 

We've got the technology and manufacturing capability today to adapt to the needs of an individual. Suffer from back issues? Ok, we can make something chambered and light. Shoulder range issues? Ok, here's a short scale. Can't see well? Wear these glasses. Trouble hearing? Try this hearing aid. Left handed? Suck it up and learn right handed like the rest of us.

 

I can't say if it applies to music, but lots of studies were done and showed detrimental effects from forcing left handed kids to write right handed - they learned to do it fine, but the process was stressful and difficult, causing other secondary issues (e.g. slower learning/development, anxiety).

 

Another interesting bit of research (though again can't say if it applies to musical instruments) was in looking at brain activity using fmri in leftys who learned to do something right handed.

 

Exactly the same regions on the left side of the brain lit up as a right handed person doing the same activity. But a big difference was that there was also activity of the right side of the brain that was being actively suppressed - i.e. even when doing an activity right handed, their "left handed" part of the brain still wanted to do it, and had to be suppressed so the "right handed" hemisphere could take over.

 

Not sure what my point was, but I found it interesting 😁 I guess just that learning an instrument is hard enough already, so the more barriers to it we can get rid of, and the fewer people excluded from it due to not fitting the default, the better.

My point was that both hands have plenty to do so handedness doesn't come into the musical learning process.

 

I don't believe I would have found it any more difficult to graduate from squawks to listenable, eventually to toneful, on a lefty violin. Maybe there's some advantage to righties to doing the bowing of strings with the dominant hand and arm, but I reckon it has to be tiny because the fingering is so mightily complex also. Advantage to the band of having everyone in neat rows not banging into each other, overwhelming!

[Happy Jack]

23 minutes ago, TheGreek said:

It's interesting that we haven't had any input from @Happy Jack who I've seen playing @Silvia Bluejay's lefties.

We've just played six gigs with three bands on two different instruments at two venues in four days.

 

 

Will re-engage with Basschat later!

[TheGreek]

Excuses, excuses..😉😉😉

[MacDaddy]

3 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

We've just played six gigs with three bands on two different instruments at two venues in four days.

 

 

Will re-engage with Basschat later!

 

I've always said you don't put enough effort into gigging 😉

[Oomo]

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

My point was that both hands have plenty to do so handedness doesn't come into the musical learning process.

 

I don't believe I would have found it any more difficult to graduate from squawks to listenable, eventually to toneful, on a lefty violin. Maybe there's some advantage to righties to doing the bowing of strings with the dominant hand and arm, but I reckon it has to be tiny because the fingering is so mightily complex also. Advantage to the band of having everyone in neat rows not banging into each other, overwhelming!

 

Yeah, I can definitely see the advantage from the orchestra leader's point of view

 

I'm not sure about handedness for learning though, different instruments seems to vary in that regard. E.g. piano has both hands doing roughly the same things, but I've heard from violinists that bowing is the really tough/technical/nuanced part compared to fingering notes.

 

No idea about wind instruments, but I remember reading that left-handed flutes used to be a lot more common long ago (and I would have thought that was an instrument where both hands do the same sort of thing).

 

From my own experience, I originally started off playing guitar, and learning right-handed. I got the fretting part quite easily, but absolutely could not get any sense of rhythm or timing with my right hand (for strumming or fingerpicking). I tried for around 6 months before totally giving up on ever being able to play. Then a year later, tried on a lefty guitar, and got back to where I was with my right-handed attempt after a month, and exceeded my progress after 2 months.

 

Arguably some knowledge transferred over of course, and maybe I would have been fine if I'd stuck with it, but I'm just happy the lefty options were out there or I'd probably not be playing at all (though even I always encourage new players to try playing right-handed first, plenty seem to get on with it, and if it works then that saves a lot of hassle down the road!)

[Silvia Bluejay]

I'll be off to Florence (NOT on holiday) soon so I won't have time to re-engage with BC but I'd like to sum up a few points you will find me and the other lefty Basschatters repeating over and over if you do a search.

 

1. Learning to do something the unnatural way is damaging - physically and especially mentally. I was taught to write with my right hand and I've had a dislike of writing by hand for the whole of my life, as well as a horrible handwriting, a signature that changes every time (thank God for chip and PIN and contactless) and, later in life, some episodes of quasi-dyslexia on occasions when I have to write by hand and I'm tired.

 

2. Those righties who appear to imply that lefties, as a minority, should learn to play instruments righty should hang their head in shame and try doing anything left-handed, for real, for a long time, not just once. Especially something essential, something they love, or something that has no alternative way of being used (scissors, computer keyboards, joysticks, can openers etc.). Then come back to us and tell us how they enjoyed the experience.

 

3. If the fretting hand was the more important when playing an instrument, then all right-handed players would be happily playing what we call left-handed instruments but, surprise surprise, they're not.