Telebass Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Will be doing our first ticket-selling, contracted gig in mid-June, and see that the contract has in it that we must pay 3% or £27, whichever is the larger, for PRS fees. Is this a standard deduction at a ticketed venue? The 3% of gross receipts bit is what the venue must pay PRS, to be sure, just that I wasn't aware that the band or whatever had to pay it; I thought it was simply what the venue had to stump up. Any clarification most welcome! PS I am waiting for an email from PRS, on this; MU seem unsure. It may depend on how we were booked - in this instance, by direct contact. No agencies or any other third party. Cheers, Den Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Whenever I've been responsible for the dosh aspects of this kind of gig the PRS always came off the overall earnings from the door before the split between the band and the venue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombboy Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 Are you playing your own material or covers? I think it makes a difference but I,m no expert. Cue Cetera...................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 cetera would be the man to ask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 As far as I understand, the promoter pays the PRS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telebass Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 All covers...as far as I can, I'm aiming to do as OG said, and split the take AFTER lights, sound, and PRS are out...but will see what they say tomorrow. Watch this space... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='chris_b' post='480369' date='May 5 2009, 08:51 PM']As far as I understand, the promoter pays the PRS.[/quote] Well yeah, and the door take/ticket sales pays the promotor If it's your first contract and your first gig at this venue I'd not create a fuss about PRS. just sell a few more tickets to cover the costs. Edited May 5, 2009 by OldGit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombboy Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 In order to obtain an entertainment licence I'm pretty sure the venue also has to have adequate PRS cover too. Whether the venue pass this cost on to the promoters and/or artists is very much down to negotiations and contracts. Thats my take on it though I may well be totally wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Sorry to 'jack a little but I have a sort of relevant question. If you have one member of the band who writes the songs, would the band have to go through PRS to distribute extra cash to him since they are kind of covering the individual's work? Or would the fact he's playing in the band negate that? And if he left the band, would they have to pay (through PRS?) to play the songs the former member wrote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I've played only a handful of larger gigs for which I've had to sign a contract on behalf of the band, and then only agent's fees were ever deducted from the total amount. I don't recall any 'club' bands having PRS fees deducted either so I think it's unusual. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='Crazykiwi' post='480362' date='May 5 2009, 08:45 PM']cetera would be the man to ask[/quote] Yep the man from the Pru, er I mean PRS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='Eight' post='480740' date='May 6 2009, 10:52 AM']Sorry to 'jack a little but I have a sort of relevant question. If you have one member of the band who writes the songs, would the band have to go through PRS to distribute extra cash to him since they are kind of covering the individual's work? Or would the fact he's playing in the band negate that? And if he left the band, would they have to pay (through PRS?) to play the songs the former member wrote?[/quote] If I understand your question correctly, all that the songwriter has to do is to join PRS to get any royalties due to him. The rest of the band don't have to join PRS as none of you are songwriters (unless of course you write for other projects, in which case if you want royalties for them you'd be advised to join). The band don't pay directly for 'covering' his songs live, as that'd be down to the venue to pay PRS fees (though in Telebass' case the venue are trying to recoup those fees from the band). PRS just collects royalties generated from public performances from the organisation making them available to the public, not directly from the band performing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coasterbass Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 We've done a few gigs like this. PRS at 3% of door receipts is standard. Never had the £27 cap. The way we've dealt with it is that its 3% of the gross sales, and is the first deduction prior to any band/promoter split. So, for example, the door makes £1000. First deduction is £30 to PRS, then you can argue with the promoter about how to split the remaining £970. PRS is not subject to tax, so if you are paying the venue the £30 to pass on, don't let them add VAT (which they've tried with us). If the venue are dealing with it then submit a setlist complete with artist/composer details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsmith Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 This often comes up at the larger venues we play and to be honest we've dealt with it in a case by case basis. Sometimes it has been deducted from the total gate and then the venue/band split has been made. In one case - which was similar to how yours sounds - it was deducted from our fee. As we were getting fairly well paid in any case and it was a venue that we wanted to play, we swallowed the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 If any venue says they're going to add VAT, ask them if the IRD is aware they're doing that. Whatever the answer, you can always offer to give them a call yourself just to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eight Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Cheers Musky, That helped settle things in my mind nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='jonsmith' post='480778' date='May 6 2009, 11:23 AM']....This often comes up at the larger venues we play and to be honest we've dealt with it in a case by case basis. Sometimes it has been deducted from the total gate and then the venue/band split has been made. In one case - which was similar to how yours sounds - it was deducted from our fee. As we were getting fairly well paid in any case and it was a venue that we wanted to play, we swallowed the cost....[/quote] This is the "con". As I understand, the original intention was that PRS was a legitimate expense of the promoter, along with electricity, security, etc, and he paid it, not the artist. As usual the artist gets ripped off, but what's unusual about that!!! If the promoter doesn't ask for a list of songs and composers then you can be sure he's pocketing the PRS money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coasterbass Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='chris_b' post='480792' date='May 6 2009, 11:35 AM']If the promoter doesn't ask for a list of songs and composers then you can be sure he's pocketing the PRS money.[/quote] Which is why I've called PRS before and dobbed them in. I don't mind paying PRS - but I do mind someone pocketing the cash on the sly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsmith Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='chris_b' post='480792' date='May 6 2009, 11:35 AM']This is the "con". As I understand, the original intention was that PRS was a legitimate expense of the promoter, along with electricity, security, etc, and he paid it, not the artist. As usual the artist gets ripped off, but what's unusual about that!!! If the promoter doesn't ask for a list of songs and composers then you can be sure he's pocketing the PRS money.[/quote] Indeed. In this case, we were given the partially completed PRS form to fill in with song titles and composer details. Of course I cannot be certain that they then paid the PRS, but in all other matters they were extremely professional & I actually believe that they did pass it on. It's a fairly well known venue in the area with some well-established artists performing there. As I said, we were reasonably paid and in fact we came away with our original intended fee. We'd built a contingency into our fee as the venue had indicated that this PRS deduction was their normal policy, but I suppose not everyone will do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telebass Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 One of the points that I forgot to make is that the venue booked US exactly as if it were a pub - because we happen to know the guy who runs it and he likes what we do. This is not us asking to play there, they are asking us. No clue if that makes a difference, but seems to me like they should swallow it on that basis... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 [url="http://www.prsformusic.com/playingbroadcastingonline/live_venues_events/concertvenues/Pages/concertvenues.aspx"]http://www.prsformusic.com/playingbroadcas...certvenues.aspx[/url] £30 or 3% of gross reciepts. Only poayable if people are paying to enter establishment and have come primarily to hear the music. Seems strange that they don't just include the 3% directly in the ticket money at the door . Or have I missed something in your explination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 If YOU were selling the tickets beforehand and he was asking you to play at no cost to him and he is just making his money on the beer. It would make complete sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telebass Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 ...Except that's not the case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Telebass' post='482244' date='May 7 2009, 06:15 PM']...Except that's not the case...[/quote] How are you getting paid? A %age of box office, or a fixed fee? If its a %age of box office why doesn't he lower your %age by 3% and take it at source. If its a fixed fee, then the more people attend the less you get. I don't get it. Are you paying him to play there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telebass Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 50/50. What I'd like to see, at the least, is the PRS out of the receipts, then the split...I did explain that they'd booked us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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