Is It Necessary To Learn Music Theory?

[greghagger]

I've seen a lot of debates online about whether or not it is necessary to learn music theory and whether this will enhance or detract from your playing. It's always struck me that the arguments come from those who, by their own admission don't know music theory.

 

So I thought it was time to talk through this debate and offer some of my experience to help you to get clarity on this subject.

 

I've looked into the musical education of a select list of ten famous bass players to see what I can gleam from this information. I think that you might be surprised by what I found out!

 

Check out the latest GBS YouTube video by clicking the image below.

 

 

[itu]

No, it is not necessary to understand theory. It is not necessary to use all musical tools available. And tools do not kill your creativity whatever some try to say.

 

For me those tools have been very important, and have widen my modest understanding of music.

 

Next question could be about reading music...

[Baloney Balderdash]

Which music theory exactly are you referring to? :

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[greghagger]

5 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Which music theory exactly are you referring to? :

 

Yes I’ve seen this too. Interesting perspective.
 

Music theory is not actually connected to one style/era of music though. It allows you to explain what you are playing to others and very much applied to ‘modern’ music. Invaluable if you wish to become a musician rather just play songs on the bass. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

2 hours ago, greghagger said:

2 hours ago, greghagger said:

Invaluable if you wish to become a musician rather just play songs on the bass. 

 

I don't agree...

 

I don't think knowing musical theory is a requirement to be a "real" musician.

 

Not at all.

 

I composed and created this without any deep knowledge of music theory :

 

And plenty of examples of great music that has been made by very real and acknowledged musicians without deep knowledge of music theory.

 

You don't really need descriptive theory to understand music.

 

All it really requires is you using your ears (and eyes).

 

 

2 hours ago, greghagger said:

Yes I’ve seen this too. Interesting perspective.
 

Music theory is not actually connected to one style/era of music though. It allows you to explain what you are playing to others and very much applied to ‘modern’ music. Invaluable if you wish to become a musician rather just play songs on the bass. 

And I also think you are kind of missing some of the main points of that video.

 

I think one of the points of the video is that what we call music theory, THE Music Theory, is just one way to look at and understand music, and if you don't realize that it will be limiting and constraining, while I don't think it in any way suggests that it is useless, and I, and for certain Adam Neely, would still absolutely call it very useful, as it absolutely does make it easier to communicate musical ideas.

 

But just as knowing a different language than your native one expands your ability to communicate and offers different options, not only in number of people you are able to communicate with, but also actually changes and expands your idea of language as such, allowing you to express concepts and ideas in a somewhat different way in one language over another. 

 

Looking and understanding the world through the filter of different languages simply changes your whole perspective of the world slightly.

 

 

Also H.C Andersen was a dyslexic and Einstein struggled with mathematics in school. 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[snorkie635]

I don't know much about music theory at all. To immediately give my answer to the question in the topic, I say, no, you do not need to know music theory to write, play and perform well on an instrument. I would add that I assume knowing theory would add to your knowledge of music and that can only be a good thing. My own area of theoretical knowledge relates to Literature, and I can approach a text from a variety of angles I'd never have imagined, had I not been trained at university so to do.

 

I would most likely enjoy and benefit from a greater knowledge of music theory, but I have only so much time left to devote to any hobby/interest, so l'll continue to enjoy my amateur status and see myself as a bass player rather than a musician.

[greghagger]

4 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

I don't agree...

 

I don't think knowing musical theory is a requirement to be a "real" musician.

 

Not at all.

 

I composed and created this without any deep knowledge of music theory :

 

And plenty of examples of great music that has been made by very real and acknowledged musicians without deep knowledge of music theory.

 

You don't really need descriptive theory to understand music.

 

All it really requires is you using your ears (and eyes).

 

 

And I also think you are kind of missing some of the main points of that video.

 

I think one of the points of the video is that what we call music theory, THE Music Theory, is just one way to look at and understand music, and if you don't realize that it will be limiting and constraining, while I don't think it in any way suggests that it is useless, and I, and for certain Adam Neely, would still absolutely call it very useful, as it absolutely does make it easier to communicate musical ideas.

 

But just as knowing a different language than your native one expands your ability to communicate and offers different options, not only in number of people you are able to communicate with, but also actually changes and expands your idea of language as such, allowing you to express concepts and ideas in a somewhat different way in one language over another. 

 

Looking and understanding the world through the filter of different languages simply changes your whole perspective of the world slightly.

 

 

Also H.C Andersen was a dyslexic and Einstein struggled with mathematics in school. 

 

 

Music theory is a way to get a deeper understanding of how music works and is certainly excellent to know if you wish to communicate with others about music. You mention “a deep understanding of music theory” but I’m just talking about learning theory as you learn your instrument. I’m not talking about being a scholar here! 
 

You’ve picked just two examples of musicians taking about their own experiences with music. There is a vast wealth of music out there and why wouldn’t you want to really understand how it works? 
 

I’m not sure if you are just commenting without watching my video but you’ve definitely backed up what I said in my conclusion which is I’ve never met anyone who knows music theory to say not to learn it. The people who say not to learn theory don’t (by their own admission) know music theory. I find that interesting! 

 

Of course we all take our own path with music but to offer advice about something that we haven’t learnt about is surprising to me. 
 

 

[greghagger]

3 hours ago, snorkie635 said:

I don't know much about music theory at all. To immediately give my answer to the question in the topic, I say, no, you do not need to know music theory to write, play and perform well on an instrument. I would add that I assume knowing theory would add to your knowledge of music and that can only be a good thing. My own area of theoretical knowledge relates to Literature, and I can approach a text from a variety of angles I'd never have imagined, had I not been trained at university so to do.

 

I would most likely enjoy and benefit from a greater knowledge of music theory, but I have only so much time left to devote to any hobby/interest, so l'll continue to enjoy my amateur status and see myself as a bass player rather than a musician.

It’s a lot easier than you think to learn theory as you go. You can still do this and remain an amateur 😀

[Baloney Balderdash]

40 minutes ago, greghagger said:

Music theory is a way to get a deeper understanding of how music works and is certainly excellent to know if you wish to communicate with others about music. You mention “a deep understanding of music theory” but I’m just talking about learning theory as you learn your instrument. I’m not talking about being a scholar here! 
 

You’ve picked just two examples of musicians taking about their own experiences with music. There is a vast wealth of music out there and why wouldn’t you want to really understand how it works? 
 

I’m not sure if you are just commenting without watching my video but you’ve definitely backed up what I said in my conclusion which is I’ve never met anyone who knows music theory to say not to learn it. The people who say not to learn theory don’t (by their own admission) know music theory. I find that interesting! 

 

Of course we all take our own path with music but to offer advice about something that we haven’t learnt about is surprising to me. 
 

 

I was basically replying to you strongly insinuating that you couldn't be a real musician without learning music theory, but seems you missed that, even if I think I made it pretty clear, by actually starting out with only quoting the bold underlined sentence of yours here:

6 hours ago, greghagger said:

Yes I’ve seen this too. Interesting perspective.
 

Music theory is not actually connected to one style/era of music though. It allows you to explain what you are playing to others and very much applied to ‘modern’ music. Invaluable if you wish to become a musician rather just play songs on the bass. 

 

And now doing it again, apparently completely choosing to disregard my response:

39 minutes ago, greghagger said:

It’s a lot easier than you think to learn theory as you go. You can still do this and remain an amateur 😀

Edited August 28, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[greghagger]

2 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

I was basically replying to you strongly insinuating that you couldn't be a real musician without learning music theory, but seems you missed that, even if I think I made it pretty clear:

 

Ah, no I wouldn’t be that insulting! I was trying to distinguish between players who want to ‘have a tinkle’ or just want to have some fun and those that want to find out all they can and take it to the next level. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, greghagger said:

It’s a lot easier than you think to learn theory as you go. You can still do this and remain an amateur 😀

1 hour ago, greghagger said:

Ah, no I wouldn’t be that insulting! I was trying to distinguish between players who want to ‘have a tinkle’ or just want to have some fun and those that want to find out all they can and take it to the next level. 

Plenty of highly skilled, acclaimed professional "amateurs" by your definition then, and I struggle to see how that is not supposed to be seen as an insult.

 

And you still totally ignore my point that you can still make amazing music without basically knowing any music theory, just by practice and actually using your ears.

 

The only thing you really need is having a great pair of ears and training them to be better, might be easier if you learn some theory too, but not in any way necessary/a requirement to make just as amazing great music as one who learned the names of they sounds they make.

 

Art doesn't need to be explained to be understood, and that is exactly the beauty of it.

 

Also as I already said H.C Andersen was a dyslexic and Einstein struggled with mathematics in school.  

 

Plenty of great visual artists as well who never had any formal schooling, even some of THE greatest in history, though I am sure some smug academic, in a patronizing tone of voice, would tell you why they are not really to be considered so, and how they are better than those themself.   

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[greghagger]

5 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Plenty of highly skilled, acclaimed professional "amateurs" by your definition then. 

 

And you still totally ignore my point that you can still make amazing music without basically knowing any music theory, just by practice and actually using your ears.

 

The only thing you really need is having a great pair of ears and training them to be better, might be easier if you learn some theory too, but not in any way necessary to make just as amazing great music as one who learned the names of they sounds they make.

 

You’ve ignored my point that you have strong opinions about something that you by your own admission don’t know. Music theory is often misunderstood by those that don’t know it. 
 

Anyway I’m sure that if you viewed my video (with an open mind), you might be surprised at what you find and we might be having a different conversation. 

 

I’m not trying to change anyone’s views on this as I believe that we should all choose our own path with music but I thought it would be good to cut through some of the BS that I read online from people who misunderstand what music theory is. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

13 minutes ago, greghagger said:

You’ve ignored my point that you have strong opinions about something that you by your own admission don’t know. Music theory is often misunderstood by those that don’t know it. 
 

Anyway I’m sure that if you viewed my video (with an open mind), you might be surprised at what you find and we might be having a different conversation. 

 

I’m not trying to change anyone’s views on this as I believe that we should all choose our own path with music but I thought it would be good to cut through some of the BS that I read online from people who misunderstand what music theory is. 

So what you are saying is my music is crap, and it is supposedly because I don't know enough theory?

 

And I don't need to have a great insight in music theory to know what music theory means.

 

Just like I don't need you to point out your insults to know them for what they are.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[greghagger]

10 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

So what you are saying is my music is crap, and it is supposedly because I don't know enough theory?

 

And I don't need to have a great insight in music theory to know what music theory means.

 

Just like I don't need you to point out your insults to know them for what they are.

 

Cool well if you’re going to put words in my mouth and are not up for a civil conversation then let’s move on 👍

[Baloney Balderdash]

44 minutes ago, greghagger said:

Cool well if you’re going to put words in my mouth and are not up for a civil conversation then let’s move on 👍

Sorry, but I don't know how to possibly have a constructive conversation with someone who straight out ignores all my arguments/points.

 

As I already stated in my first response to you I am not opposing that music theory indeed can be very helpful when playing and composing music, I am however opposing your patronizing statements of it being a requirement to be considered a "real" musician and to make "real" music, and, as I also think I actually already pointed out pretty clearly, I am pretty certain that I have music history, at least the more modern one, on my side in that argument.  

 

I don't need music theory to recognize and know what sounds great, and I don't need music theory to know, or at least be able to find out, how to make that sound happen.

 

Neither do I need music theory to tell everyone else how to play, cause I trust they got ears too.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[greghagger]

44 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Sorry, but I don't know how to possibly have a constructive conversation with someone who straight out ignores all my arguments/points.

 

As I already stated in my first response to you I am not opposing that music theory indeed can be very helpful when playing and composing music, I am however opposing your patronizing statements of it being a requirement to be considered a "real" musician and to make "real" music, and, as I also think I actually already pointed out pretty clearly, I am pretty certain that I have music history, at least the more modern one, on my side in that argument.  

 

I don't need music theory to recognize and know what sounds great, and I don't need music theory to know, or at least be able to find out, how to make that sound happen.

 

Neither do I need music theory to tell everyone else how to play, cause I trust they got ears too.

 

This particular line of discussion doesn’t seem to be going anywhere for either of us. 
 

Let’s move on….
 

What did you think of the video? 

[Baloney Balderdash]

57 minutes ago, greghagger said:

This particular line of discussion doesn’t seem to be going anywhere for either of us. 
 

Let’s move on….
 

What did you think of the video? 

Come to think of it there might be a misunderstanding happening here, I think when you say musician you might be talking about being a professional instrumentalist, in this context bass player, and probably maybe even hired gun/studio bassist more specifically, while I am talking about being a real musician, by which I am mainly thinking in the context of being an original composer.

 

Also your video is alright I suppose, although rather biased and one sided, seems like you pretty obviously right from the start, rather than exploring the subject, as otherwise promised by the title of the video being posed as a question, had a clear one sided mission of proving your personal opinion about it, so a more honest title for the video perhaps would have been "Why You Need To Learn Music Theory As A Bass Player", which again suggests that you were prioritizing making more people click your video over clear communication.

 

When that is said I never really commented/replied to the video, but on what you otherwise stated in the OP and replies you posted in this thread.

 

Threads tend to evolve and branch out from strictly being about the OP (original post), you can't really expect people to solely focus on the the OP (original post), and to an even lesser degree your personal main objective with the OP (original post), and not to comment on what else is being said in a thread, especially not if it is responses to what OP (original poster) otherwise posted.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Frank Blank]

13 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Come to think of it there might be a misunderstanding happening here...

 

U OK hun?

[ahpook]

20 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

...Einstein struggled with mathematics in school. 

 

 

 

This is a myth, BTW.

 

He failed an entrance exam for Zurich Polytechnic, when he took it two years early, but not the maths. The exam was in French, not a language he excelled in.

 

As you were.

 

 

[greghagger]

14 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Come to think of it there might be a misunderstanding happening here, I think when you say musician you might be talking about being a professional instrumentalist, in this context bass player, and probably maybe even hired gun/studio bassist more specifically, while I am talking about being a real musician, by which I am mainly thinking in the context of being an original composer.

 

Also your video is alright I suppose, although rather biased and one sided, seems like you pretty obviously right from the start, rather than exploring the subject, as otherwise promised by the title of the video being posed as a question, had a clear one sided mission of proving your personal opinion about it, so a more honest title for the video perhaps would have been "Why You Need To Learn Music Theory As A Bass Player", which again suggests that you were prioritizing making more people click your video over clear communication.

 

When that is said I never really commented/replied to the video, but on what you otherwise stated in the OP and replies you posted in this thread.

 

Threads tend to evolve and branch out from strictly being about the OP (original post), you can't really expect people to solely focus on the the OP (original post), and to an even lesser degree your personal main objective with the OP (original post), and not to comment on what else is being said in a thread, especially not if it is responses to what OP (original poster) otherwise posted.

 

That was quite a long-winded way to say that you replied without watching the video. 
 

Of course we all have biases, mine is that I value music theory, yours is that you don’t. But surely presenting a question as the title of a video is acceptable even if I already know my answer? I thought that using ten famous bass players from a list that I didn’t pick and looking into their musical education was an objective way to sidestep my bias as much as possible. It surprised me that even more than I thought had studied music  when I did this. 
 

Anyway, as I said before, I’m not looking to try to changed people’s mind but to present the facts and I reckon that over 40 years of studying many different styles of music and playing bass professionally for over 25 years puts me a good position to make this video. 

[chris_b]

A knowledge of music theory is not a prerequisite for playing bass, or even being a good bass player, but most of the best bassists will know all of this stuff.

 

I've played with several songwriters who didn't know the names of any of the chords or even the notes they were using. That was OK for what they were doing at the time, but it meant they couldn't easily play anyone else's music or songs, or play with other musicians. 

 

If we could only talk we couldn't be contributing to Basschat. The fact that we know grammar and can read and write means we can communicate with each other at all levels. Same with playing a musical instrument. The more you know about its language the better you will be at musically communicating your ideas.

[Frank Blank]

I was a punk when I was young, part of the schtick was to be anti-everything and while that did encourage independence and a strong DIY ethic, which I still have thanks to the era, it also made us throw a lot of the good stuff out with the bathwater. I remember arguing vociferously against learning theory, backed up with hollow arguments about not adhering to a orthodoxy, how untrained musicians make interesting and surprising note/chord choices.

 

Then I was lucky enough to meet someone classically trained, a violinist, guitarist and singer, who is steeped in theory. She makes note/chord choices that even I wince at. Because she understands the orthodoxy she absolutely understands how to subvert it. I'm rambling, in short, know your enemy. Now I just wished I'd learnt theory when I was a kid, not that it was an option as my family were a) bastards, b) not financially well off and, (just for good measure), c) bastards again. But it isn't their fault (even though they were bastards) that I am not learning theory today, that's my hangup, but man, I wish I'd learned.

[itu]

I think Baloney is taking this a bit too personally. Paco de Lucia learned note reading because McLaughlin and Meola said it is about time. It is true there are top musicians that aren't formally trained. But...

 

I suppose I am mediocre at best. Studies in music schools, lots of training and the ability to read and even write scores has been my edge. Some theory has pushed me far further than I could ever have reached by myself. I remind you that when I learned music, interweb, and youtube were non-existent. Players exchanged copies of scores, and copied LPs, CCs, and later even CDs. Now web is full of scores, lessons, whatever.

 

As said, theory isn't a must, but as the tools are there, why not to use them?

[greghagger]

5 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

I was a punk when I was young, part of the schtick was to be anti-everything and while that did encourage independence and a strong DIY ethic, which I still have thanks to the era, it also made us throw a lot of the good stuff out with the bathwater. I remember arguing vociferously against learning theory, backed up with hollow arguments about not adhering to a orthodoxy, how untrained musicians make interesting and surprising note/chord choices.

 

Then I was lucky enough to meet someone classically trained, a violinist, guitarist and singer, who is steeped in theory. She makes note/chord choices that even I wince at. Because she understands the orthodoxy she absolutely understands how to subvert it. I'm rambling, in short, know your enemy. Now I just wished I'd learnt theory when I was a kid, not that it was an option as my family were a) bastards, b) not financially well off and, (just for good measure), c) bastards again. But it isn't their fault (even though they were bastards) that I am not learning theory today, that's my hangup, but man, I wish I'd learned.

Very honest post Frank. I rebelled by picking up a bass as I was learning piano from my Dad at the age of 4 and then trumpet. Playing in a band was my two fingers up at the establishment.
 

But once I realised around the age of 18 that I could actually play bass for a living if I soaked up everything about music, I embraced it all and went for it. Switching what I had already learnt about reading music and music theory from the other instruments was easy to transfer to bass. I thanked my Dad many times for teaching me music in those early years and enabling me to support myself and a family through playing bass. 
 

if I can learn music theory from 4 years of age, anyone can quite easily, especially with the amount of resources out there now like @itu pointed out. 

[greghagger]

1 hour ago, itu said:

I think Baloney is taking this a bit too personally. Paco de Lucia learned note reading because McLaughlin and Meola said it is about time. It is true there are top musicians that aren't formally trained. But...

 

I suppose I am mediocre at best. Studies in music schools, lots of training and the ability to read and even write scores has been my edge. Some theory has pushed me far further than I could ever have reached by myself. I remind you that when I learned music, interweb, and youtube were non-existent. Players exchanged copies of scores, and copied LPs, CCs, and later even CDs. Now web is full of scores, lessons, whatever.

 

As said, theory isn't a must, but as the tools are there, why not to use them?

I agree with all of this. Knowledge of music theory certainly opens a lot of doors.
 

I learnt bass initially with a cable wired into my record player! Records were just on the cusp of being replaced by cassette around then. No internet and we didn’t even have a TV 😂 I can only remember one bass magazine that had the odd bit of Tab in it.