Cookies

[Silvia Bluejay]

I get this message when I log on:

 

Quote

We use cookies to personalise content and ads, to provide social media features and to analyse our traffic. We also share information about your use of our site with our social media, advertising and analytics partners.

 

Well, I don't want that to happen. I don't want this website to share any information about my use of this site with your partners. But I'm only offered a button called "Got it!", so I can't deny permission. I'm not sure this is legal in the UK?

[Kiwi]

 

As mentioned in the site update notice above, I am trialling a partnership with new third party advertiser called Ezoic.  This is because BC needs the income and the last couple of years have been pretty bad for the digital marketing industry overall.  I've really struggled to get sponsors on board by myself who are interested in display ads.  Most of the larger names in the music industry I've spoken to, like Andertons and Reverb, expect us to join affiilate schemes which operate in a way (as a sales channel) that is different to how BC functions best (as a marketing platform).  It's like Nike going to Youtube and offering them a commission based on the sales Youtube generates for them.  The rate of return on affiliate advertising for us is pretty poor because that's not what we do.  So this is a back stop while I wait for things to pick up within the industry or a better way of doing things emerges.

Woody the other admin and I have also spent the last four months working through technical issues with Ezoic around cookie management on GC and today was supposed to be the start of a four week trial on BC. Apart from this hiccup, Ezoic have been pretty good to work with, very proactive and sensitive to my concerns about causing disruption and alarm. So to have something unexpected happen like this pop up is pretty disappointing given things were running so smoothly on GC.  

 

Now the important bit:
The main objective of the advertising trial is to test if we can get more income in by increasing the advertising only to lurkers. That is, people viewing the site who are not signed in.  We've gone to quite some lengths, including commissioning a new plug in from Invision, to avoid any increase in exposure to ads for members.  We are also removing all exposure to ads for those members who are kind enough to support the site.

The only way Ezoic can differentiate between members and supporting members is through cookies.  So the plug in we commissioned puts a cookie in your browser cache that tells Ezoic what grade of membership you have.  That should tell Ezoic whether to show ads in a browser window or not.  Adblock should still work but it shouldn't be necessary if you are signed in.  If you are blocking cookies, I can't predict what you will see - I hope the feedback you provide will help us minimise alarm and concerns. 

If you have any questions about what Ezoic does, feel free to ask them below and I'll either pass them on and report back, or if they're technically complex, I'll invite Ezoic to come on here and answer them directly. 

Finally: 
Just a reminder that this is a trial.  That means initial testing for four weeks from today. 

From the first moment I started having discussions with them, I emphasised very strongly the need to establish a good fit with the community and to not cause alarm or concerns.  If Ezoic is indeed a good fit and can provide the income needed to support the site then we'd like to keep them on board.  If they cause more problems than they solve then...well, the search for an alternative source of income might have to continue.  

[Happy Jack]

The finances of any given website or forum will generally be so opaque as to be quite impenetrable to the Users, and Basschat is no different to that.

 

All of which said, it's hard to understand how such a thriving and successful Forum, with so many subscribing Members and a busy (and paid for) Marketplace can be running short of money.

[Silvia Bluejay]

Thanks Steve @Kiwi. My Firefox cookie handling is set on STRICT so it will reject most of whatever Ezoic is trying to ask my browser anyway. However, I must say I'm still uncomfortable and I have activated Adblock Plus on this site for good measure. I prefer to actually see any ads that appear on this site, for several reasons, but for the moment I'll go with this over-defensive setup.

Hope things improve soon for the site on all levels.

[BreadBin]

I'm browsing on my Android phone, Google browser with no adblockers. I've clicked 'got it' and now get no extra ads, just the little banner ad at the top (currently Rotosound new picks).

For my configuration at least it appears to be working exactly as intended 👍

[SpondonBassed]

With every sympathy for what you've said @Kiwi,  I am a supporting member and would like to continue to do so as the site is quite important to me.  However, I shall make this the last year in which I contribute if this goes on beyond the trial.

 

Sorry, but as a paying member, I do not want to see any third party stuff.  I have been tolerant because @ped mentioned that BC was looking to make this possible for paying subscribers.  I run a script blocker which prevents Ezoic (and others) from running scripts on my machine.  The fact that this is happening despite blocking their script has upset me somewhat.

 

I don't believe that a cookie is the ONLY way to identify paying and non-paying subscribers after sign-in.

[rwillett]

1 hour ago, Kiwi said:

 

As mentioned in the site update notice above, I am trialling a partnership with new third party advertiser called Ezoic.  This is because BC needs the income and the last couple of years have been pretty bad for the digital marketing industry overall.  I've really struggled to get sponsors on board by myself who are interested in display ads.  Most of the larger names in the music industry I've spoken to, like Andertons and Reverb, expect us to join affiilate schemes which operate in a way (as a sales channel) that is different to how BC functions best (as a marketing platform).  It's like Nike going to Youtube and offering them a commission based on the sales Youtube generates for them.  The rate of return on affiliate advertising for us is pretty poor because that's not what we do.  So this is a back stop while I wait for things to pick up within the industry or a better way of doing things emerges.

Woody the other admin and I have also spent the last four months working through technical issues with Ezoic around cookie management on GC and today was supposed to be the start of a four week trial on BC. Apart from this hiccup, Ezoic have been pretty good to work with, very proactive and sensitive to my concerns about causing disruption and alarm. So to have something unexpected happen like this pop up is pretty disappointing given things were running so smoothly on GC.  

 

Now the important bit:
The main objective of the advertising trial is to test if we can get more income in by increasing the advertising only to lurkers. That is, people viewing the site who are not signed in.  We've gone to quite some lengths, including commissioning a new plug in from Invision, to avoid any increase in exposure to ads for members.  We are also removing all exposure to ads for those members who are kind enough to support the site.

The only way Ezoic can differentiate between members and supporting members is through cookies.  So the plug in we commissioned puts a cookie in your browser cache that tells Ezoic what grade of membership you have.  That should tell Ezoic whether to show ads in a browser window or not.  Adblock should still work but it shouldn't be necessary if you are signed in.  If you are blocking cookies, I can't predict what you will see - I hope the feedback you provide will help us minimise alarm and concerns. 

If you have any questions about what Ezoic does, feel free to ask them below and I'll either pass them on and report back, or if they're technically complex, I'll invite Ezoic to come on here and answer them directly. 

Finally: 
Just a reminder that this is a trial.  That means initial testing for four weeks from today. 

From the first moment I started having discussions with them, I emphasised very strongly the need to establish a good fit with the community and to not cause alarm or concerns.  If Ezoic is indeed a good fit and can provide the income needed to support the site then we'd like to keep them on board.  If they cause more problems than they solve then...well, the search for an alternative source of income might have to continue.  

 

First of all thank you for the comprehensive update. Thats very helpful. I think what you are doing is the right approach as well.

 

I wasn't aware of this test, not sure I should be at all to be honest, but it appears other people have been scared by it.

 

I like the idea of advertising for lurkers, I also like the idea of paying supporters not having some of the ads. I recognise the challenges that you face financially, its a tough environment. Thats why I became a paid supporter.

 

It would be good to know which cookiers are needed and which are not. Most people (including myself) have no issues with necessary cookies, but I am wary of the trackers that accompany Google and Facebook. Facebook has too much information about people already.

 

My personal view is that the more comms the better. However other people might have other views. I am more reassured now and will follow this with interest,

 

Rob

[Reggaebass]

12 hours ago, DGBass said:

Looks like a new feature and I recall there was some discussion about cookie banners fairly recently. I did get some friendly feedback from the powers that be to explain why certain cookies were needed but I must admit i wasn't fully convinced all the cookies could be classed as totally necessary. Anyway, my cookie flavours appear to be in italian for some reason🤔

 

Mine are in French 

[rwillett]

I wonder if this is based on your IP address? Thats the normal way to *try* and work where people are. This fails miserably for stuff like AOL who are all out of Virginia.

 

If you go to this website https://nordvpn.com/what-is-my-ip/ it displays where it thinks you are. This is where it thinks I am. Its out by around 30 miles but at least it's in the right country.

 

 

Since your IP address is sent out with every http request, its not sensitive information and will be in the logs anyway.

 

Might be worth checking, There are lots of websites that do this sort of stuff.

Rob

[DGBass]

Having an option to opt out of uneccessary cookies and I guess GDPR regulations would be a reasoanble guide as to what constitutes an unecessary cookie would I think go someway to helping forum users not get the fear from the "Got It" pop up. At the moment it serves no real purpose in my mind other than to tell a user we are using cookies to profile you for advertising purposes and there is no choice other than to agree to make the pop up go away. I've also noticed on my browser that posts are now re-arranged by likes and not date by default? It's easy enough to re-order but i'm not sure if its a bug from the new implementation or deliberate to push the most likes to the top of a thread? Using different browsers has a marked effect on what you now see when browsing basschat whether logged in or lurking. Firefox on strict as @Silvia Bluejay mentioned is fairly useable and helps minimise ads so far. 

[Woodinblack]

55 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

I don't believe that a cookie is the ONLY way to identify paying and non-paying subscribers after sign-in

 

It isnt - it is the way the advert suppliers do it though. The cookie is to say not to provide adverts as now the site is going through their gateway.

 

8 minutes ago, rwillett said:

I wonder if this is based on your IP address?

 

I doubt it - It is in french on one of my machines and english on the other.

 

7 minutes ago, DGBass said:

I've also noticed on my browser that posts are now re-arranged by likes and not date by default? It's easy enough to re-order but i'm not sure if its a bug from the new implementation or deliberate to push the most likes to the top of a thread?

 

That has always been the way on the site issues forum, but not on any others, as this is designed for a question / answer type layout. This hasn't changed at all. It is designed to push the most popular answer (ie, the one most people thought answered the question) to the top.

[binky_bass]

As a general rule, I reject all requests for cookie acceptance. 99% of website have an option to decline cookies or to manage them at least. I've not come across a site that simply crudely says 'got it'. There should be an option to reject. If there isn't, personally for me this is a bit of a deal breaker. As a near 20 year member of the various iterations of Basschat, I'd hate to have to abandon ship, but unless I have the option to manage cookies to my preference, then I'll be left with not much option but to leave the site and with it my membership. I expect others will probably do similar, so in an attempt to draw an income to the site you might inadvertently loose a good few paying members... I get you need to balance the books, but not at the cost of selling our data please. I'd be happier paying more towards membership.

[fleabag]

I found the  Got it !   this morning, but there are links to go to the Cookie Policy page, which is one of those generic annoying types, where instead of just putting up  a "  Reject All "   button, you have to untick all the boxes that you dont want, which of course, is all of them.  I've seen this type  many times on websites.  Tiresome , because they could just implement a standard cookie policy with a reject all button, but some, like the one here, means manually unticking about 8 or 9 boxes.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by fleabag

[Reggaebass]

6 minutes ago, fleabag said:

there are links to go to the Cookie Policy page,

I found this one but unless I’m missing something how do I not consent 

[Reggaebass]

Just now, Reggaebass said:

I found this one but unless I’m missing something how do I not consent 

 

[fleabag]

Those white ticks in blue boxes need unticking.  That's a generic Cookie Policy  page that i've seen many times on other websites.  More than annoying as it needs you to manually decline every blue tick.  They must figure you cant bothered or something.  I've sometimes opened a website which uses this generic cookie page, and simply moved on to another website selling the same stuff i was looking for.  But being this is Basschat, i  went ahead and declined every blue tick that was possible to decline

Edited August 31, 2023 by fleabag

[Reggaebass]

1 minute ago, fleabag said:

Those blue ticks in boxes need unticking.  That's a generic Cookie Policy  page that i've seen many times on other websites.  More than annoying as it needs you to manually decline every blue tick.  They must figure you cant bothered or something.  I've sometimes opened a website which uses this generic cookie page, and simply moved on to another website selling the same stuff i was looking for.  But being this is Basschat, i  went ahead and declined every blue tick that was possible to decline

Thanks fb 

[BigRedX]

BTW none of the new cookies from Ezoic appear to be listed on the Basschat cookies page. Does that not need updating? 

[Gardenerben]

Supporting Member here and for feedback, I won't support the site if I can't reject all cookies. I will just stop using it.

[Dad3353]

4 hours ago, Kiwi said:

...

Just a reminder that this is a trial.  That means initial testing for four weeks from today. ...

 

OK for a trial period. I shall not log into BC for four weeks; if there is still any sign of this stuff after that period, I'll renounce BC until it goes away. I'm not a paranoid 'they're following me' freak, but this is totally over the limit. If the site needs more money, I'll gladly consider any other means of contributing (modestly...); this kind of 'partnership' is not acceptable to me. I'll be deleting all unwanted cookies when I exit here (I do this regularly anyway...). Thanks for all the hard work and tough decisions involved in keeping BC afloat; back in four week's time. Meanwhile...

 

Have a splendid day.

 

Douglas

 

PS : I'll log in just for the BC Compo Challenge Certificate this evening; next month's Challenge is, however, compromised. 'Sigh...'

[Rumple]

Not only is there no opt out option but even if I begrudgingly press 'Got it' it reappears the next time I visit BC, it was even in French one time!

[fleabag]

There is an option to opt out.  I've already posted it.  I opted out, saved this action, and then logged out of BC, cleared BC cookies in CC cleaner, then logged back in to BC and the cookie popup has disappeared.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by fleabag

[binky_bass]

@Kiwi - This new policy is clearly going to alienate a good number of very loyal members. The fact that the cookie notification pop-up is extremely unclear as to how to reject said cookies does bring into discussion the morality of the company you've partnered with. If the pop-up was a typical one where you can simply click 'reject' then I'd have no issues, as I assume few people would. The way this has been set up comes across as dishonest and makes people feel like they are having their privacy violated which is not the Basschat way. I appreciate you're in the unenviable position of balancing this website in all the ways it need balancing, but this isnt going to do the site any favours when some of the most long serving members are going to pack it in because there's no clear and honest way to reject cookies. 

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

OK for a trial period. I shall not log into BC for four weeks; if there is still any sign of this stuff after that period, I'll renounce BC until it goes away.

 

Dont' forget it is the same on GC.

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, SpondonBassed said:

I don't believe that a cookie is the ONLY way to identify paying and non-paying subscribers after sign-in.

 

It is if you don't want to sign in afresh every time you visit the site.

[Stub Mandrel]

Personally, I got fed up with worrying about this stuff years ago.

 

I just ticked OK and got on with life.

 

But all this discussion piqued my interest.

 

I see that despite being a recently renewed supporting member Adblock is blocking 17 items on this page. But turning adblock off doesn't make them visible. So what are these invisibles?

 

Incidentally, I have 'show acceptable ads' enabled in Adblock.