Power Amp Only Combo's

[Skybone]

Just a thought...

 

With the prevalence of "out-board" pre-amp pedals / amp modelling gadgets, etc. I was wondering why amp manufacturer's haven't cottoned on to this and brought out a range of "power amp only amps / combo amps"? Especially ones with a choice of speaker sizes. Blackstar do the 1x15 Unity 250ACT, but no-one else does anything similar, especially one with 10" speakers/

 

Especially now we have lightweight and powerful neodymium magnet speakers, and Class D power amps, surely it's not too big an issue for them?

 

There's plenty of FRFR amps out there, but they seem more geared towards our skinny-stringed brethren, and not to the low-end lothario's.

 

@Ashdown Engineering Barefaced?

Edited September 7, 2023 by Skybone

[MichaelDean]

I guess there's the GSS Sumo range and there's the GR Bass Pure range. Seems like quite a small offering though.

[sandy_r]

50 minutes ago, Skybone said:

Just a thought...

 

With the prevalence of "out-board" pre-amp pedals / amp modelling gadgets, etc. I was wondering why amp manufacturer's haven't cottoned on to this and brought out a range of "power amp only amps / combo amps"? Especially ones with a choice of speaker sizes. Blackstar do the 1x15 Unity 250ACT, but no-one else does anything similar, especially one with 10" speakers/

 

Especially now we have lightweight and powerful neodymium magnet speakers, and Class D power amps, surely it's not too big an issue for them?

 

There's plenty of FRFR amps out there, but they seem more geared towards our skinny-stringed brethren, and not to the low-end lothario's.

 

@Ashdown Engineering Barefaced?

 

Hi

The crossover (apologies, pun unintentional) between traditional PA units and newer 'powered speakers' is becoming more blurred and seems the sensible way to go, from a technical PoV

 

The low-end needs, however, will always be a bit of an exception, i guess, due to the physics of low-frequency sound

 

There's also the market-driven inertia caused in part from "if i'm not standing in front of some serious audio weaponry, it's not Rock&Roll" and also in part from the comparatively large audience-base who want live music entertainment still, in venues too small/traditional to justify serious investment of PA technology & support

 

 

[jrixn1]

2 hours ago, Skybone said:

There's plenty of FRFR amps out there, but they seem more geared towards our skinny-stringed brethren, and not to the low-end lothario's.

 

If you mean they are not marketed specifically towards bassists - then I agree.  Bassists are a very tiny percentage of their target market.

 

Otherwise, there is nothing functional or feature-wise about powered speakers which means a bassist can't or shouldn't be using them.  If anything, with DSP for crossover and speaker protection, they are more featured.  Many including me have moved to powered speakers and sold our traditional bass amps and cabs.

 

A bass-specific company would have an uphill battle against a PA company since the latter have decades more experience and an absolutely massive economy of scale advantage in terms of research and production.

[funkydoug]

maybe not an obvious choice, but the Hartke KB combos have a very simple set of tone controls that can be bypassed, making them not much more than a powered cab for bass.

[Beedster]

PJB powered speakers are in essence what you're talking about, and they're lovely 👍

[jrixn1]

2 hours ago, Skybone said:

Barefaced?

 

Barefaced did have such a product: https://barefacedaudio.com/products/fr800, which was a Big Baby 2 with a built-in 800W power amp.  It was discontinued in 2019.  Very expensive for what you got vs if you'd gone for RCF or QSC (even more so if £1,279 was the 2019 price).

[jrixn1]

3 hours ago, Skybone said:

no-one else does anything similar, especially one with 10" speakers/

 

GR Bass make active cabs; e.g. here's their 2x10: https://www.grbass.com/portfolio/at-210v-350-800-act/

 

10kg is crazy!  £1,325 though for the 800W version, and not in stock in the UK as far as I can see.

[Jakester]

I think GK do/did do a couple of powered combos which were supposed to be driven from a line out from their 'normal' combos - eg https://www.andertons.co.uk/amps/bass-amps/bass-amp-cabs/b-stock-:-gallien-krueger-112-mbp-powered-bass-cab

 

The fact they're discontinued suggests there wasn't much of a market for them. 

[Skybone]

2 hours ago, sandy_r said:

There's also the market-driven inertia caused in part from "if i'm not standing in front of some serious audio weaponry, it's not Rock&Roll" and also in part from the comparatively large audience-base who want live music entertainment still, in venues too small/traditional to justify serious investment of PA technology & support

Indeed, being in a band that plays smaller venues with reasonable PA's, but the monitoring isn't great, mixed with a loud drummist and a guitarist that is usually not loud enough to complete with the drummer (yes! they do exist!), having a backline is important. We're not a "pro" band, that owns a PA, we're reliant on our backline.

 

58 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

Barefaced did have such a product: https://barefacedaudio.com/products/fr800, which was a Big Baby 2 with a built-in 800W power amp.  It was discontinued in 2019.  Very expensive for what you got vs if you'd gone for RCF or QSC (even more so if £1,279 was the 2019 price).

I remember looking at that, didn't realise that they'd dropped it from the range.

 

Bass Direct have those GR's in, £1,145 for the 350w & £1,325 for the 800w. There's a 1x10 for £795.

 

I guess I'll just carry on using the "Effects Return" on my trusty old Ashdown combo.

[BigRedX]

Surely the whole point of going for a dedicated pre-amp or modeller is that what you send FoH is the same as what you hear on stage, in which case the last thing you want is a "bass" speaker colouring your sound. That's why those of us who have ditched traditional bass amps use PA-style FRFRs. And if you don't go through the PA and your rig is slowly responsible for what the audience hears then you just adjust the preamp settings until you get the sound you want from your FRFR cab.

[Downunderwonder]

11 hours ago, Jakester said:

I think GK do/did do a couple of powered combos which were supposed to be driven from a line out from their 'normal' combos - eg https://www.andertons.co.uk/amps/bass-amps/bass-amp-cabs/b-stock-:-gallien-krueger-112-mbp-powered-bass-cab

 

The fact they're discontinued suggests there wasn't much of a market for them. 

They didn't help themselves by using a super high signal level at the interface so you could only use them with GK combos with matching output.

 

Generally if you are in the business of selling bass combos there is no economy in selling the same thing minus a bass preamp stage. By the time it was in the market it would be selling for the same price.

 

In a parallel situation Quilter got the idea to supply a bass oriented power brick from a Talkbass talkfest. Same idea, BYO preamp. By the time the design was formalized it was able to take a passive bass and had some EQ, because that's what people want when you can have it for the same money or very nearly. 

[uk_lefty]

There's loads of bass amps where you can switch off the onboard EQ and bypass it but whether there's still some colouring of the sound I couldn't say. I used to do this on my Ashdown Rootmaster sometimes when running a Boss GT-10B or Helix Stomp in front. I'd guess if the way you want to go is using effects modelling then getting a PA monitor speaker would do the job? As for bass amp companies catching up with PA brands... Peavey?

 

Personally, while I've gone ampless a few times recently out of necessity I will be karting my ABM600 and 2x 15"s to my gig tonight, even though we've got sound and soundman on hand. I just feel I have more control with the Ashdown. And yes, I like having a big amp behind me even though I know that really I don't need it.

[dclaassen]

1 hour ago, uk_lefty said:

There's loads of bass amps where you can switch off the onboard EQ and bypass it but whether there's still some colouring of the sound I couldn't say. I used to do this on my Ashdown Rootmaster sometimes when running a Boss GT-10B or Helix Stomp in front. I'd guess if the way you want to go is using effects modelling then getting a PA monitor speaker would do the job? As for bass amp companies catching up with PA brands... Peavey?

 

Personally, while I've gone ampless a few times recently out of necessity I will be karting my ABM600 and 2x 15"s to my gig tonight, even though we've got sound and soundman on hand. I just feel I have more control with the Ashdown. And yes, I like having a big amp behind me even though I know that really I don't need it.

I think this might (mostly) be a generational thing. I did my first rehearsal with my new-to-me Trace rig (4x10 and 1x15) and love the reassurance of being more washed in bass tone than just hearing it. It's not louder, just......better? I'm not sure, for most of the stuff I play, I need flat response....with everything else we do to change our tone (bass, strings, pedals, etc) why is that so important? 

[Skybone]

On 08/09/2023 at 08:07, uk_lefty said:

There's loads of bass amps where you can switch off the onboard EQ and bypass it but whether there's still some colouring of the sound I couldn't say. I used to do this on my Ashdown Rootmaster sometimes when running a Boss GT-10B or Helix Stomp in front. I'd guess if the way you want to go is using effects modelling then getting a PA monitor speaker would do the job? As for bass amp companies catching up with PA brands... Peavey?

 

Personally, while I've gone ampless a few times recently out of necessity I will be karting my ABM600 and 2x 15"s to my gig tonight, even though we've got sound and soundman on hand. I just feel I have more control with the Ashdown. And yes, I like having a big amp behind me even though I know that really I don't need it.

 

And is exactly this quandary that lead me to start the post in the first place. 

 

99% of the places we play, the on-stage monitoring is either pitiful or non-existent, we don't own our own PA and so the "in-ear" option is out of the window (due to hearing issues, I'd rather wear earplugs than in-ears anyway).

 

Though I think we all agree, that most manufacturer's of Bass amps/cabs will not be producing powered cabs in any great volume any time soon.

[BassmanPaul]

If you are talking about a power amp in a regular combo any combo with an effects loop can do that for you by plugging your pre-amp/pedals in to. the Return socket. Most times this gives you direct access to the combo's power amp.

 

 

[jezzaboy]

This was my set up last year. It has now changed a bit as it`s just a tuner and a Sans Amp programable through the RCF 715. On this occasion, it was used as a stage monitor and put through the pa but I have used it on it`s own for pub gigs and as I have sold my ABM stack, it`s all I have left.

 

I wear ear plugs as well due to having a loud drummer and 2 Marshalls, one each side and this set up does the biz. Well worth thinking about.

 

@Skybone just reread your opening post. This RCF can handle all the bass you can throw it, 15" speaker and 1400 watts, (more like 700 watts) of class D power. The DSP / FIRPHASE gubbins built in takes care of the sound without you having to think about it.

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by jezzaboy

[Phil Starr]

I love that you have a torch on your pedal board. I think I have the same one.

 

[Phil Starr]

On 07/09/2023 at 07:41, Skybone said:

Just a thought...

 

With the prevalence of "out-board" pre-amp pedals / amp modelling gadgets, etc. I was wondering why amp manufacturer's haven't cottoned on to this and brought out a range of "power amp only amps / combo amps"? Especially ones with a choice of speaker sizes. Blackstar do the 1x15 Unity 250ACT, but no-one else does anything similar, especially one with 10" speakers/

 

Especially now we have lightweight and powerful neodymium magnet speakers, and Class D power amps, surely it's not too big an issue for them?

 

There's plenty of FRFR amps out there, but they seem more geared towards our skinny-stringed brethren, and not to the low-end lothario's.

 

@Ashdown Engineering Barefaced?

It's a great question.

 

PA speakers like the RCF 715 of course offer the internal gubbins you describe and are a way to go. I've used a pair of RCF 310's regularly and a QSC12-2. Part of the problem is that they don't have the same form of a dedicated bass cab (we do like our wooden boxes) and the other is that they have plastic cases. Wood still out performs  plastics as a cab material  IMO/IME. You can buy some great PA cabs with wooden cabs but they tend to be at the much higher price bracket of touring gear. Another issue is that PA cabs are designed to be on poles radiating bass 360degrees, Bass cabs are designed to sit on a floor and radiate 180deg so with the floor reinforcement PA cabs can be extremely bass heavy. I shelve mine down 6db from around 150Hz for stage monitoring

 

It isn't that difficult to design and develop a bass combo like this. There have been more or less successful home built cabs where people have achieved good results. I think these combos will be coming but from boutique manufacturers which pushes the price up as they will not have the economies of scale. Many decades ago I used to build and sell cabs, when I dipped my toe into making amps as well it broke my company. It more than doubles the capital you have to invest in your stock, increases the complexity of your supply lines, necessitates bringing in new skills and in those days amps went wrong more frequently than speakers. I can see why those Barefaced FR800's didn't sell hugely and were so expensive. You can buy in some great Class D power amp modules but bought in 10's they are more expensive than a fully fledged and cased bass amp. 

 

Really interesting are the LFSys speakers, I have a couple of the LFS Silverstones. In terms of design they are PA cabs  designed for bass guitar, They have PA horns and compression drivers and a very high quality crossover but the bass drivers have better excursion limits than most PA drivers and the wooden cabs are extensively braced so they handle the bottom end better and with fewer cab resonances than a moulded plastic cab. I can say from experience that they work extremely well. They would take a power amp beautifully but at the moment it would be way cheaper to use the FX input of a bass amp or a power amp .

 

As to using DSP that's really simple and way easier than doing design with a conventional wired crossover. I can just use the rudimentary DSP in my PA amp to instantly adjust frequency, slope and  levels in the crossover and make instant measurements/listening tests. I have phase and delay plus limiting/speaker protection at hand too.

[Steve Browning]

Are there any combos where the amp stage is rack sized. You could flog the amp bit and install a power amp. Mesa certainly have done that in the past.

[JPJ]

Just been browsing the old t’internet and found to my surprise that Accugroove offer powered versions of all of their cabs. 

[funkydoug]

Barefaced Facebook suggests they’re still developing a powered cab product. 

[crazycloud]

On 10/09/2023 at 18:13, Phil Starr said:

Wood still out performs  plastics as a cab material  IMO/IME.

Providing the cab itself is properly designed, there is no reason why this should be so, and it is far easier to brace well a moulded cab than a simple rectangular cuboid wooden one. I'm basing this on doing a lot of speaker design over the years, including measuring cab resonances with accelerometers.

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by crazycloud

[crazycloud]

On 10/09/2023 at 18:13, Phil Starr said:

You can buy in some great Class D power amp modules but bought in 10's they are more expensive than a fully fledged and cased bass amp. 

The best value class D module is the HB Block 800 which is an IcePower AS700 module. Keeping the EQ flat and the comp off it seems flat to me, but as I'm building a new workshop ATM, I'm not set up to easily measure it. Going in through the FX return is almost certainly flat.

[Downunderwonder]

4 hours ago, funkydoug said:

Barefaced Facebook suggests they’re still developing a powered cab product. 

For real??? They had one and it didn't sell enough to warrant continuation.