2 bass signals to the desk

[Delamitri79]

Hey folks 

 

So here's how I run my setup. 

 

I run a line from my bass to a boss tu3 tuner into an active DI that goes straight to desk on channel 10 and out the front, then, I take the link connection from that DI and run it into a boss EQ pedal and then into a radial sb1 active DI and into channel 9 on the desk and that doesn't go out front. 

I get an aux feed back to myself for in ears. 

 

So, channel 10 is for FOH and is mixed and sent out. No issues. 

 

Channel 9 is not sent out front but is mixed and EQ'd and sent back to me. 

 

So, I have the whole band mix in my ears and then I can EQ my own bass on the fly with boss EQ pedal and it won't affect FOH cos it's on channel 9. 

 

Am I causing a phase issue if I'm pulling the link from one DI into another from the same source (bass guitar)?? 

 

Cheers 

[BigRedX]

If you are getting both the FoH mix and your individual bass send in your IEMs then you may have phase issues with the bass in your IEMs, but in theory not FoH where it really matters.

 

Personally I think that sometimes we get a little bit too precious about on-stage sound. While it would be brilliant have a perfectly EQ'd and balanced mix for each musician in the band, that tends to cost more money than most bands want to spend. In the mean time I'll settle for being able to tell I'm in tune and in time with the rest of the band and enough of the vocals and other instruments to know where I am in the overall song structure without needing to count bars.

[Delamitri79]

I don't get both in my in ears. I only get channel 9 and I can EQ it from the pedal and then channel 10 goes out front but not back to me. Just wondering would there be a phase problem considering I'm pulling the signal for channel 9 from the DI for channel 10 

[BigRedX]

If the two signal are completely separate and only one goes to the FoH and the other to your IEMs then it should be fine. Phasing only occurs when you get the same signal from two different sources.

 

The easiest thing is to try it and see if you can hear any unwanted artefacts.

Edited September 7, 2023 by BigRedX

[Delamitri79]

I'll give it a shot mate thanks 

[mike257]

@BigRedX is right - if there's no blend of the two signals, then their phase relationship doesn't matter. It's only if you're blending two similar signals that are out of phase to one another that they start to interact and cause cancellation or summing of certain frequencies. 

[joeystrange]

Is there a reason you need separate signals for ears and FOH? Do you purposely want it to sound different in your ears than it does in the house?

One of my bands is on IEMs and we send the same signal to both.

 

That would be a simpler setup and you wouldn’t have to worry about phase issues.

[Delamitri79]

It's basically so I can adjust on the fly cos I've a boss EQ pedal in the DI for my in ears. 

[TimR]

You'll always get phase difference between monitor speakers and main speakers and your in-ears just due to the physical positioning of the speakers and the in-ears. Although the monitors should be louder to you than the mains and if your in-ears make a good seal then that should be blocking out the monitors and mains.

 

You'll even get phase issues if the bass amp is too far from the back wall and reflections off the back wall can cancel some of the frequencies that are direct from the speaker. 

 

Whether or not you notice them will depend on lots of factors. 

 

Is that what you're asking?

[Delamitri79]

Yeah it's kinda what I'm asking. 

 

What happened was, I explained my setup to a sound engineer and he said I shouldn't run it that way cos I'll get phase problems. I can't see any issue and can't hear anything wrong so I wanted to ask the question in a dedicated bass forum like here. 

 

The main concern is that I'm taking the signal for the in ears DI from the DI for the FOH. 

 

I think it's OK but just wanted to check 

[Downunderwonder]

20 hours ago, Delamitri79 said:

whole band mix in my ears

 

20 hours ago, Delamitri79 said:

Channel 9 is not sent out front but is mixed and EQ'd and sent back to me. 

 

So, I have the whole band mix in my ears and then I can EQ my own bass on the fly with boss EQ pedal and it won't affect FOH cos it's on channel 9. 

Technically your engineer is correct. There could be latency differences between your two signals.

 

It isn't at all clear how you accomplish your blend of engineer's Ch9 monitor mix and your Ch10.

 

I wonder if there's a whizz bang desk that sends you a mix that only has your ch9 in it, just for you, because you're special, and the engineer resents having to T it up.

[Downunderwonder]

13 minutes ago, Delamitri79 said:

 

The main concern is that I'm taking the signal for the in ears DI from the DI for the FOH

That's not what you said you were doing. Start again.

[TimR]

1 minute ago, Downunderwonder said:

It isn't at all clear how you accomplish your blend of engineer's Ch9 monitor mix and your Ch10.

 

 

He doesn't. 

[Downunderwonder]

1 minute ago, TimR said:

 

He doesn't. 

Maybe, maybe not. It's all up the wazoo as to what he's doing.

[BigRedX]

If the OP has all the elements in place then the simplest thing will be for them to just try it. If it sounds OK it is OK.

[TimR]

Sounds to me like you're giving the engineer a headache as he will have to give you a separate mix with nothing from chanel 9 mixed with everyone else. 

 

Depends how he has his desk set up and how many free channels he has for monitoring. He may just have one monitor mix for stage. 

[TimR]

1 minute ago, Downunderwonder said:

Maybe, maybe not. It's all up the wazoo as to what he's doing.

 

Two DIs to desk. One for in-ears mix and one for the desk.

 

He wants the first mixed with the band and sent to his in-ears as it has local eq applied. 

 

The second is DI from bass so engineer can do whatever he wants with it. 

[Downunderwonder]

1 minute ago, TimR said:

Sounds to me like you're giving the engineer a headache as he will have to give you a separate mix with nothing from chanel 9 mixed with everyone else. 

 

Depends how he has his desk set up and how many free channels he has for monitoring. He may just have one monitor mix for stage. 

Backpedaling much.

 

I thought the IEM stuff was touted for giving everyone a custom mix, given enough channels.

 

1 minute ago, TimR said:

 

Two DIs to desk. One for in-ears mix and one for the desk.

 

He wants the first mixed with the band and sent to his in-ears as it has local eq applied. 

 

The second is DI from bass so engineer can do whatever he wants with it. 

That's what he wants. What's he is actually getting is the question.

[jrixn1]

You've confused people here, and perhaps the engineer too, with your unconventional setup.  Instead, use a single DI box in the usual fashion to send to FOH.  Request a monitor mix containing no bass.  Then mix that with the bass from the DI box's 'thru' output yourself, using a two-channel headphone amp e.g. https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_hpa_in_ear.htm    Put your EQ pedal between the DI box and the headphone amp.

 

[TimR]

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

thought the IEM stuff was touted for giving everyone a custom mix, given enough channels.

 

IEMs are just monitor speakers for your ears. Unless it's a digital desk and you have access to it via your tablet/phone you get what you're given from the desk.

[Downunderwonder]

1 minute ago, TimR said:

 

IEMs are just monitor speakers for your ears. Unless it's a digital desk and you have access to it via your tablet/phone you get what you're given from the desk.

There's still pro sound guys using analog desks?

[TimR]

30 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

There's still pro sound guys using analog desks?

 

I assume so otherwise he could just split the single bass DI and eq and mix his in-ears himself with whatever eq and level he wants. 

[Delamitri79]

1 hour ago, TimR said:

 

Two DIs to desk. One for in-ears mix and one for the desk.

 

He wants the first mixed with the band and sent to his in-ears as it has local eq applied. 

 

The second is DI from bass so engineer can do whatever he wants with it. 

Thank god someone gets it 

[Delamitri79]

TimR, you've nailed it pretty much and you've understood it.

 

It's very simple really. I want EQ control at my feet of my in ear bass tone. 

I don't care what the engineer does to it out front. That's his business. 

My question was, if I'm pulling a bass signal from one di into another di, will I have a phase issue. 

 

So, the 1st di goes straight to FOH (engineer has control of everything on that channel and i get full band mix back except the bass channel). 

The 2nd di then takes the link signal from the 1st di and runs back to a different channel which doesn't go to FOH but does get sent back to me as part of the band mix but, and crucially, I have EQ control at my feet of that bass channel specifically just so I can get a nice bass tone in my ears and have a nice band mix behind it. 

 

Is that any clearer. It's a very simple setup. 

1 hour ago, TimR said:

 

Two DIs to desk. One for in-ears mix and one for the desk.

 

He wants the first mixed with the band and sent to his in-ears as it has local eq applied. 

 

The second is DI from bass so engineer can do whatever he wants with it. 

Thank god someone gets it 

[mike257]

There's definitely some overcomplication of a simple concept happening in this thread.

Yes it's fine to do what you're doing
Yes there's a possibility the signals will be slightly out of phase with one another
No it's not a problem since you're not mixing the two signals together

I frequently split sources across more than one channel to process them differently for FOH and mons - even when I'm mixing mons (which is where I usually am) I'll frequently split certain channels to be treated differently in wedges vs IEMs, or for different people's mixes. What you're doing is absolutely fine and shouldn't cause you any issues.  I know someone's mentioned splitting it digitally within the desk, which is how I usually do it for my needs, but that takes away your ability to process it separately from stage, so what you're doing now is absolutely the right way to achieve the result you're going for.