FRFR

[Dazed]

So I’ve been reading about these, bewildering amount of cabs available, already a bad start for me -choice is my nemesis 😄

I’ve generally always used the simplest of setups a head and cab or combo and rarely used effects but do occasionally a pedal or two. I sold all my gig gear years ago and now have a tiny valve amp and a PJB Doublefour for use at home. 
Im after something very lightweight as it’s a two and a half storey flight of stairs between the door and outside and I’m done with lugging heavy gear about. 

 

What can you put through an FRFR cab then? Pre amp or modelling type device? 
Can you use an actual amp head output?

A valve equipped di pedal? 
 

Apologies if some these questions are stupid but I’m really not well educated in this area. 

[jrixn1]

47 minutes ago, Dazed said:

What can you put through an FRFR cab then? Pre amp or modelling type device? 
Can you use an actual amp head output?

A valve equipped di pedal? 

 

Yes, yes, and yes.

This is usually the point where I recommend an RCF 732-A...

 

Quote

I’ve generally always used the simplest of setups 
[...]
Im after something very lightweight 

 

However... a powered speaker isn't the lightest option.  If the lowest weight is the priority, look at Barefaced cabs, GR Bass cabs and combos, and the latest Markbass MB58R combos.  (Although none of them is cheap.)

 

A powered speaker also isn't the simplest option.  You'll need at least a preamp pedal, and so then you'll probably need a power supply - so now you've got a small pedalboard setup which is an additional thing to be brought and plugged in at each gig.

 

How loud do you need to be at your gigs - what style of music and what type of venues?  I think you double on upright, if I recall from your recent posts - do you need separate EQ channels or can you get away with sharing one channel?

 

If minimum weight and maximum simplicity were my criteria (and I didn't want to spend over £1000), the MarkBass MB58R P is only 10.5kg, and around £695.  Plug straight in with a cable and that's it - pretty simple.  There is no powered speaker at that weight of comparable quality and volume that I know of.

 

[crazycloud]

2 hours ago, Dazed said:

What can you put through an FRFR cab then? Pre amp or modelling type device? 
Can you use an actual amp head output?

A valve equipped di pedal? 

All of the above.

 

I've been using wide bandwidth, high fidelity type cabs for decades simply because I don't want a baked in tone from an amp/cab but the flexibility to create it, and vary it according to my needs. Next year I might be getting back together with the girls to gig again and I might be using bass, electric and acoustic guitar and baritone, depending on what we actually play musically. Add a clean amp, a 'FRFR' cab and a modeller like a Stomp and I can get all the bandwidth and clean SPL I need for any type of music in the one rig.

 

I design and build my own rigs, but the best I've heard in a single box is the Yamaha DXR15.2.

Edited September 7, 2023 by crazycloud

[stevie]

The FRFR concept comes from the world of electric guitar. Among other things, it gives you the benefit of having a proper monitor on stage rather than a guitar cab. However, you definitely need a modeller of some kind to simulate the sound of a guitar speaker, which is an inherent part of the electric guitar sound.

 

You absolutely don't need to use a modeller when you're using an FRFR cab designed with bass guitar in mind. A standard bass amp will do the job just fine.

 

Our guitarist turned up last night with a Headrush cab and a small Line 6 modeller. "It's 2000 watts," he proclaimed. It looked like it had an 8-inch speaker in it. It didn't sound bad, but he tried the modeller in my FRFR cab with a neutral bass amp and there was a world of difference.

[Baloney Balderdash]

My "amp-less"/FRFR setup:

 

Quote

 

My entire signal chain explained in written form  (currently in the process of rearranging my setup, following is the most likely outcome) :

 

(*pedals listed in [ red/bold/underline text ] are "always on" effects*)

 

 

4 string 28.6" scale Ibanez GSRM20 neck + GSRM20B body Mikro Bass (equipped with an EMG Geezer Butler P pickup, and strung with Elixir Nanoweb coated nickel-plated roundwound hex steel core guitar strings, gauge .068 - .052 - .038 - .028, tuned in tenor bass, A standard, tuning, that is as the 4 upper strings of a 6 string bass in regular B standard tuning) ->

 

->> XVive Undulator (tremolo pedal, but never actually engaged and used exclusively for its great buffer) ->> EHX Black Finger (tube driven optical compressor, with 2 preamp tubes operating at proper high 300V plate voltage, mainly used as a tube preamp stage, driven to just at the edge of the tubes's breakup point, but with some very subtle compression dialed in as well) ->> TC Electronic Sub'N'Up Mini (used exclusively for an 1 octave up effect, delivered by a custom made Toneprint, dialed in to mimic an 8 string bass/12 string guitar, to fill out more sonic space, mostly used in conjunction with my high gain distortion setup) ->> DigiTech FreqOut (feedback generator) ->> Boss LS-2 [A+B Mix <-> Bypass] (parallel effect loops mixer/switch) ={ [Loop A Send] ->> Monarch MFL-22 Stereo Flanger (sometimes stacked into the HoTone tremolo in front of it, and always mixed with either clean signal or the Behringer phaser from parallel effects [Loop B]) ->> HoTone Trem (tremolo, sometimes used with the Monarch Stereo Flanger behind it stacked into it, and always mixed with either clean signal, or sometimes the Behringer VP1 Vintage Phaser, from parallel effects [Loop B]) ->> [Loop A Return] ->|+|<- [Loop B Send] ->> Behringer VP1 Vintage Phaser (clone of the original big box EHX Small Stone phaser, used with Color switch engaged for deep sweep and high resonance/feedback, and always mixed with the Monarch MFL-22 Stereo Flanger from parallel effects [Loop A]) ->> [Loop B Return] ([Loop A] + [Loop B] mixed at an approximate 50/50 ratio) => [LS-2 Output] }=>->> Boss LS-2 [A+B Mix <-> Bypass] (parallel effect loops mixer/switch) ={ [Loop A Send] ->> Mosky Black Rat (RAT clone, in Turbo RAT, LED diode clipping, mode, quite raunchy, fuzz-esque, high gain distortion, always used mixed with the {Orange Juice -> Metal Zone} from parallel effects [Loop B]) ->> Behringer SF300 Super Fuzz (Boss FZ-2/Univox Superfuzz clone, octave fuzz, always mixed with either clean signal, or {Orange Juice -> Metal Zone}, from parallel effects [Loop B]) ->> [Loop A Return] ->|+|<- [Loop B Send] ->> Joyo Orange Juice (Orange amp like overdrive, dialed in to deliver a low gain overdrive, always used stacked into the Boss Metal Zone in front of it, and mixed with the Mosky Black RAT from parallel effects [Loop A]) ->> Boss MT-2 Metal Zone (distortion, dialed in at a rather moderate gain setting, always used with the Orange Juice behind it stacked into it, and always mixed with either the Mosky Black Rat, or sometimes the Behringer Super Fuzz, from parallel effects [Loop A]) ->> [Loop B Return] ([Loop A] + [Loop B] mixed at an approximate 50/50 ratio) => [LS-2 Output] }=>->> Zoom B1Xon (used predominantly as reverb unit, with various different reverb patches, including the always on {very subtle Plate Reverb -> subtle Spring Reverb} reverb patch that is part of my basic "clean" tone, and an extremely thick, lush reverb patch, used as a pad effect with volume swells from the build in expression pedal, though also used for a couple of additional effects, including a prominent "wah" pedal patch and a trippy reverse delay patch) ->> Danelectro Fab Metal (post reverb high gain distortion, often used stacked into the Orange Juice in front of it) ->> Joyo Orange Juice (post reverb medium gain distortion) ->> Behringer VD400 Vintage Delay (clone of the Boss DM-3 Analog Delay) ->> NUX Tape Core Deluxe (amazing digital emulation of the legendary Roland RE-201 Space Echo tape delay) ->> NUX (NBP-5) Melvin Lee Davis Bass Preamp + DI  (loaded with a digitally emulated Aguilar Tone Hammer amp, and an Ampeg SVT-212AV IR cab simulation, with a subtle low gain overdrive blended in at a 50/50 clean/drive ratio) ->

 

->> ART Tube MP Project Series (tube preamp and DI, with build in HPF, fixed @40Hz -12dB/Oct, engaged, tube driven to just on the verge of breakup point) ->

 

// ->> Band rehearsal/jamming/gigging  // ->> Home practice // ->> Home recordings //  : 

 

// ->> Band rehearsal/jamming/gigging ->> Effects Return (poweramp input) of a Peavey Solo Special 112 (160W combo amp, with the build in speaker disconnect and instead hooked up to a passive PA speaker) ->> The Box PA 502 (passive full range flat frequency response PA speaker with 1x 15"  woofer/mids driver + 1.7" high frequency tweeter horn) // ->> Home practice  ->> The T.Mix Mix 502 (mixer) ->> Sennheiser HD 380 Pro (studio grade, that is FRFR, headphones) // ->> Home recordings ->> M-Audio Fast Track (audio interface) ->> Reaper (DAW) //

 

[Phil Starr]

I've been FRFR for a while now. With  my duo I go straight into my monitors which are RCF ART310's, you have to roll off the bass a little as PA speakers aren't really designed to be on the floor. For the band I use a 1x10 which is a self build for  gigs as a stage monitor and most of what the audience hears is directly through the PA. For bigger gigs where there is no PA support or outdoors I use an LFSys Silverstone. Amps are usually a Warwick Gnome or a Bugera set completely flat but if I'm going straight to PA with bass I use either a SansAmp or a Zoom B1ON for very light tone shaping.

 

There's something nice about having a real cab on stage behind you and IME there is a slight tone advantage in a wooden cab. My Silverstone with the Bugera will do everything I need  and is my keep out of trouble rig if I don't know what a gig will be like. The Gnome with the 10" cab is just so portable and light. You might want to look at  LFSys Cabs The Monaco works really well with an upright bass and so will the Monze if smaller and lighter is an issue.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Phil Starr

[Downunderwonder]

Several misleading posts made so far.

 

A FRFR cabinet means it reproduces the signal it is sent faithfully within the expected passband.

 

The preamp and amp may do same with the signal from the bass or add wonderful tone. Most solid state amps are very faithful at the amplification to speaker level stage.

 

The aim is that the player's monitor sounds like what he expects to hear out in the room. The identical signal is sent to FOH with the expectation they will treat the room EQ before messing about with the bass feed to make it fit.

 

So many people get it backasswards.

[Baloney Balderdash]

2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Several misleading posts made so far.

 

A FRFR cabinet means it reproduces the signal it is sent faithfully within the expected passband.

 

The preamp and amp may do same with the signal from the bass or add wonderful tone. Most solid state amps are very faithful at the amplification to speaker level stage.

 

The aim is that the player's monitor sounds like what he expects to hear out in the room. The identical signal is sent to FOH with the expectation they will treat the room EQ before messing about with the bass feed to make it fit.

 

So many people get it backasswards.

My main objective with utilizing an "amp-less" setup and using a FRFR speaker has always predominantly been having a consistent tone regardless of whether I am practicing at home with a pair of proper studio grade FRFR headphones, rehearsing or jamming with band through my FRFR speaker, or gigging playing live through a given venue's PA system.

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Jack]

On 07/09/2023 at 16:32, Dazed said:

What can you put through an FRFR cab then? Pre amp or modelling type device? 

Can you use an actual amp head output?

A valve equipped di pedal? 
 

Apologies if some these questions are stupid but I’m really not well educated in this area. 

Most people are talking about powered cabs in this thread, and with those you'd be using the effects send or preamp output on an amp head, NOT the speaker output. 

[Elfrasho]

Hopefully I can hijack/resurrect this thread and ask, what's a good option out there under £250? I'd prefer a 12" and wil only be used for monitoring, but I fancy one. I've tried the headrush 12" which would be ideal but if something out there for a good wedge cheaper can do the same job id be keen to hear.

 

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

On 09/09/2023 at 03:59, Downunderwonder said:

The aim is that the player's monitor sounds like what he expects to hear out in the room. The identical signal is sent to FOH with the expectation they will treat the room EQ before messing about with the bass feed to make it fit.

So many people get it backasswards.

Yep. What those not in the business don't realize is that both amps and speakers spend a lot of time being Beta tested before they hit the shelves. It's done so that it sounds good out of the box with as little EQ adjustment as possible. The manufacturer of one speaker that I designed took close to a year of Beta testing with dozens of players just to dial in the crossover. 😲 It was worth it, it won numerous new speaker of the year awards, but still that's a lot of testing.

 

Using an FRFR you usually end up using a lot more EQ to get the sound you're after, which means it's not going to be a simple plug and play unless you have an modeling amp or accessory speaker emulating circuit. Think about that. You have an FRFR speaker and then you need an amp or accessory to make it sound like a speaker that's not FRFR. 🤥

[Downunderwonder]

23 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

 

Using an FRFR you usually end up using a lot more EQ to get the sound you're after, which means it's not going to be a simple plug and play unless you have an modeling amp or accessory speaker emulating circuit. Think about that. You have an FRFR speaker and then you need an amp or accessory to make it sound like a speaker that's not FRFR

Any sound person worthy of the title should recognize that effort and endeavour to EQ their PA to the room to save themselves the effort of tweaking everything in the mix. Lots of bands not even using cabs these days.

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, Elfrasho said:

Hopefully I can hijack/resurrect this thread and ask, what's a good option out there under £250? I'd prefer a 12" and wil only be used for monitoring, but I fancy one. I've tried the headrush 12" which would be ideal but if something out there for a good wedge cheaper can do the same job id be keen to hear.

 

 

Doubtful. I think the cheapest I have seen would be used Barefaced for around 700. Overkill for a monitor. A used 10"RCF active might be around 500 if you can find one?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

20 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Any sound person worthy of the title should recognize that effort and endeavour to EQ their PA to the room to save themselves the effort of tweaking everything in the mix.

Even at the top tier of touring sound I'd say 90% of FOH engineers don't know how to mix the bass. Most of those who do are also bass players and/or recording engineers. 

[warwickhunt]

11 hours ago, Elfrasho said:

Hopefully I can hijack/resurrect this thread and ask, what's a good option out there under £250? I'd prefer a 12" and wil only be used for monitoring, but I fancy one. I've tried the headrush 12" which would be ideal but if something out there for a good wedge cheaper can do the same job id be keen to hear.

 

 

 

RCF310a - Don't worry about it being 10", mount it on a speaker stand at head height to the side of stage where you stand (if you move around stage a lot you need to rely on PA foldback) and you'll hear yourself no problem.  It isn't strictly FRFR but tbh I tried the 12" Headrush AND Alto speakers and the RCF was more effective and didn't require as much EQ putting back into it.  Budget wise I just sold a pair of the 310s for £380, to buy a pair of used QSC K10s for £800... they are not twice the speaker of the RCF but they can be used as a better fit for various applications that I need.  

 

Oh and just for giggles; I've chased the silent stage/IEM/monitor/preamp/IR/Profiler for over a year... to come full circle back to using my Thunderfunk 550 amp and a Genz Benz 212 cab for 'MY' on-stage monitoring.    

 

If I need to use my rig for small rooms I can do so without troubling our PA and as the venues step up in size, my DI (which is always, regardless of room size,  fed to the PA so that anyone using IEM can get my signal) gives the option of taking the heavy lifting.

[Phil Starr]

6 hours ago, Elfrasho said:

Hopefully I can hijack/resurrect this thread and ask, what's a good option out there under £250? I'd prefer a 12" and wil only be used for monitoring, but I fancy one. I've tried the headrush 12" which would be ideal but if something out there for a good wedge cheaper can do the same job id be keen to hear.

 

 

You will struggle to get something all singing and dancing at that price. Bass is quite demanding of speakers and high quality at high volume is always going to come with a cost. You are probably going to have to compromise a bit. I’ve successfully used an RCF ART310 but I’m not looking for huge volumes and I roll off the bass so it is less demanding of the speakers. Bass goes through the PA and of course the lower frequencies come back from them onto the stage  anyway so rolling off the bass is necessary anyway. If you can compromise on volume Then you could pick up something like that used but within your budget.

[Baloney Balderdash]

Now, it weight about a ton and can "only" handle 300W, but if that is no issue I can't recommend the The Box PA 502 PA speaker enough (comes in an active version too, the The Box PA 502A).

 

It is cheap but it sounds genuinely amazing and got an impressive low end response that beats even most similar speced high end speakers and dedicated bass cabs.

 

Very well balanced and clear tone, with an impressive, but tight and punchy, low end response.

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[nottswarwick]

I’ve just posted in another thread how I use a single RCF 732a with a Sansamp Q Strip. It sounds great but I’m going to return to a small bass combo. Lighter, simpler, and made for the job out of the box.