Car insurance

[jezzaboy]

Like lots of us on here I do the occasional gig. I`m not a professional musician, I don`t make loads of money doing it but do get paid for it sometimes.

 

I`m doing the car insurance quote bit and as it`s a bit of a nightmare trying to work out the best deal, most policy`s state that for social, domestic and commuting use but excluding any trade or professional use. Does doing gigs if you get paid for them come under these conditions? Does anyone else bother?

Thoughts?

[Dan Dare]

Paid gigs definitely count as work. I'd strongly advise getting cover that includes professional use. Insurance companies love a loophole. If you just go for SD&P and have an accident on the way to/from a gig, they will happily wave goodbye and leave you to sort out the mess (and possibly pay someone's relatives for the rest of your life if the very worst happens).

 

It won't be the cheapest, but it'll be a lot cheaper than the worst that could happen. Many insurers will take monthly DD payments these days, which helps spread the pain. The MU can point you in the direction of insurers who cover musicians at not outrageous prices. You are unlikely to find one on the Compare the Market type of sites. 

 

 

[warwickhunt]

Legally/technically et al, if you get paid for doing a gig, it is employment and you 'should' be telling your insurance company and paying the premium.  

 

In reality... if it is the occasional gig and not your 'job', not many will be doing the above; especially as the excess premium will wipe out 10 gigs worth of money!  If you were to have a bump and it was investigated that you were on the way to/from a gig you could have your insurance void.  I suppose an individual has to do that risk assessment and decide for themselves.  I know of no musician that declares they are a musician (if you know me I stand to be corrected) and I know a lot of them; likewise I don't know anyone who has ever had an accident while gigging... not to say it can't happen.  

 

I refer back to my first statement as the correct / legal answer.

 

[Dan Dare]

I have to disagree with much of the above (sorry, Warwick). Most musicians I know do declare what they do to their insurers. The excess premium I pay does not equate to 10 gigs worth of money per year. it's more like two (works out at an extra couple of hundred a year for me, although I am older and have a large NCD).

 

The cost of an insurer declining to meet your claim will be a LOT more. You can take a chance, of course, but you'll regret it big time if the worst does come to pass, especially if you are at fault and you have to pay someone else's costs as well as your own. The chance of it happening may not be great, but paying a little more is worth it to me for my peace of mind.

 

As I pointed out previously, you won't find any bargains on Compare the Market type sites. They are aimed at Mr & Mrs Average. When I started to do a few gigs many years ago, I told my then insurer that I wished to add cover as a musician and they wanted to quadruple my premium. I asked the MU for advice and they put me in touch with my current insurer (Victor Knight - Google will find them). The cost is only slightly more than what I paid previously. A specialist broker who deals with insurance for professional/occupational purposes will probably be able to find you something, too.

 

It's your decision, but I'd urge you not to take a chance. Insurers just love to avoid paying out if they can. Fair enough. They're businesses and have to protect their bottom line.

[Linus27]

I think there needs to be some clarity if we are talking about pro or semi pro musicians or those who are weekend warriors playing down the Red Lion on a Friday night. I'm not aware of any musician who is a weekend warrior who declares on their insurance they are a musician or claims it as a second income. I am not even aware of the insurance company being remotely interested in what you were doing prior or post accident on the day/evening and only interested in your description of how the accident happened. I have never had to provide information to the tune of saying it was Friday night and I had been playing a gig at the Red Lion and after the gig I drove home and had an accident. It has always been on this date at this time I joined the A31 and the other driver rear ended me etc. I am sure also below a certain financial threshold per year, it is classed as a hobby and not a business, professional, trade etc. 

 

However, if a pro or semi-pro (how do you even define this) and you have registered your vehicle for business use as a musician then I can see that you would possibly declare it.

[casapete]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

I have to disagree with much of the above (sorry, Warwick). Most musicians I know do declare what they do to their insurers. The excess premium I pay does not equate to 10 gigs worth of money per year. it's more like two (works out at an extra couple of hundred a year for me, although I am older and have a large NCD).

 

The cost of an insurer declining to meet your claim will be a LOT more. You can take a chance, of course, but you'll regret it big time if the worst does come to pass, especially if you are at fault and you have to pay someone else's costs as well as your own. The chance of it happening may not be great, but paying a little more is worth it to me for my peace of mind.

 

As I pointed out previously, you won't find any bargains on Compare the Market type sites. They are aimed at Mr & Mrs Average. When I started to do a few gigs many years ago, I told my then insurer that I wished to add cover as a musician and they wanted to quadruple my premium. I asked the MU for advice and they put me in touch with my current insurer (Victor Knight - Google will find them). The cost is only slightly more than what I paid previously. A specialist broker who deals with insurance for professional/occupational purposes will probably be able to find you something, too.

 

It's your decision, but I'd urge you not to take a chance. Insurers just love to avoid paying out if they can. Fair enough. They're businesses and have to protect their bottom line.

I agree with most of this, with the exception of the ‘not using comparison sites’ bit. I’ve had my occupation

down as ‘professional musician’ for over 30 years (and semi pro for many before that) with motor insurers

and for the last decade or so have used comparison sites with no problems. Always found the best deals

via this, and often swapped around companies if offered better deals. Years ago I did use a specialist

broker ( maybe the MU friendly one) and they were okay but couldn’t compete with some of the others.

 

A lot of it does boil down to what category of the music industry you fall into  - the bottom line though

is that if the insurance company can wheedle their way out of paying out a claim then they will. I honestly 

don’t see the point of withholding or lying about your circumstances where any insurance is concerned,

as the result could be catastrophic and even life changing.

[casapete]

27 minutes ago, Linus27 said:

I am not even aware of the insurance company being remotely interested in what you were doing prior or post accident on the day/evening and only interested in your description of how the accident happened. I have never had to provide information to the tune of saying it was Friday night and I had been playing a gig at the Red Lion and after the gig I drove home and had an accident. It has always been on this date at this time I joined the A31 and the other driver rear ended me etc. I am sure also below a certain financial threshold per year, it is classed as a hobby and not a business, professional, trade

What about if the police are involved regarding the accident? They see your car is full of gear, stands

to reason they will check to see  if your insurance covers your use of the vehicle at the time. Would

be the same for anyone using a vehicle in any line of business. ( Takeaway delivery drivers are always

getting prosecuted for not having correct insurance for what may be only a part time job for example.)

Add in the fact you may have been playing at a local hostelry and smell of booze then questions will

no doubt get asked. 

[Dan Dare]

18 minutes ago, casapete said:

I agree with most of this, with the exception of the ‘not using comparison sites’ bit. I’ve had my occupation down as ‘professional musician’ for over 30 years (and semi pro for many before that) with motor insurers and for the last decade or so have used comparison sites with no problems. Always found the best deals via this, and often swapped around companies if offered better deals. Years ago I did use a specialist broker (maybe the MU friendly one) and they were okay but couldn’t compete with some of the others.

 

That's interesting. I must admit I haven't shopped around for a few years, as I've been happy with my present insurer. When I originally tried to find insurance as a musician - a while ago, now - the quotes I received were pretty eye-watering. Come renewal time, I'll have a look and see what's on offer. Thanks.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Dan Dare

[PaulWarning]

I just insure my car for social use, after all being a weekend warrior that's what is is, I'm not doing it for the money,.

Just be careful when using comparison sites and trying out the musician as a profession then deciding it's too expensive, they'll know you put down musician on one of your searches.

Last year I rang up my existing insurer said I'd got a better quote online, straight away they were looking at my search and knew I'd changed my average mileage etc, spooky eh?

[chris_b]

In my book a hobby is not "trade or professional use". If "commuting" to your place of work is allowed, I'd be interested in an insurance company's opinion about us using our cars to get to and from the location of a hobby.

 

My guess is they probably wouldn't want to know when we drive a car full of friends to watch a football match (even if we accept some petrol money), or drive to a golf course.

 

I know several people who drive to the local Unii to invigilate in the exams, for which they get paid. None of them declare it as a "second job" to their insurance company.

[Linus27]

1 hour ago, casapete said:

What about if the police are involved regarding the accident? They see your car is full of gear, stands

to reason they will check to see  if your insurance covers your use of the vehicle at the time. Would

be the same for anyone using a vehicle in any line of business. ( Takeaway delivery drivers are always

getting prosecuted for not having correct insurance for what may be only a part time job for example.)

Add in the fact you may have been playing at a local hostelry and smell of booze then questions will

no doubt get asked. 

 

I don't see this makes any difference to be fair. Lets say I went out for a meal on Friday night and my car was full of old furniture that belonged to me that I had sold on Ebay and was going to deliver the next morning and was being paid £50 for. That's not a business or a trade so it is no different to having my car full of my own music equipment that I used as my hobby by playing down the Red Lion and got paid £50 for. As long as I am not acting as a business or a trader and earning enough to cause a concern to the HMRC then there is no difference. In fact The Police wouldn't even be interested at all to be fair unless a crime has been committed. My mate Dave down the road could ask me to give him a bass lesson. I load my car up, give him a lesson and he pays me £20 for the trouble. I give him this lesson in the back room of a pub. My mate gets totally smashed on booze and I drink water all night. Again, that's not any concern to The Police or insurance company as no crime on my part is committed and I am not acting as a business and purely a hobby. They may smell booze, breathalyze me but as I am stone cold sober then no crime has been committed.

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Linus27

[Tokalo]

If it’s a job, doesn’t there need to a contract of employment, albeit that does not necessarily need to be in written format.

 

For my gig next Saturday, I didn’t organise it, and I have no idea if I’m being paid, let alone how much.

 

I’ve played 5 gigs so far this year, and because it’s for fun, the average I’ve received has been about £40.

 

I can’t see this being covered by employment law, even if it’s only inferred.

[Linus27]

As a weekend warrior, legally, no organisation or company would consider or lay claim on you as a worker or employed, and you would have no rights, especially as there would be no contract of employment in place. Even if a contract existed for you to perform as an agreement on a date for a sum, if below a financial threshold, then HMRC would not be interested in asking you to pay tax.

[casapete]

I’m not saying I disagree with the examples shown above - it’s just a matter of perception by insurance

companies trying to squirm out of coughing up. Give them any loophole to find as to whether the

vehicle was being used for anything other than what it’s says on the insurance document and they

will gladly spend time digging deeper. I know we’re only talking small amounts of money being 

earned by people gigging as a hobby, but as far as the insurance company are concerned it’s

a grey area worth checking if it saves them paying out. It’s all numbers to them - they argue that

even a part time musician is more likely to be out late at night than say an accountant, that the

vehicle will be left parked up in dubious places other than on the driveway, that the vehicle may

be used for carrying heavy gear etc etc. I know it’s all bolloc*s but that’s how they work.

 

I once was involved in a debate with an insurance company years ago over my premium having

been hiked considerably on renewal due to be my being a muso. One of the reasons they cited was

that ‘I may be giving Mick Jagger a lift home’ with the risk of a massive claim etc. Unbelievable.

( Mick always got a cab…) 😆

[SteveXFR]

I use my car for work occasionally. It cost me an extra £20 to add business use. Might as well add it at that cost

[Dan Dare]

47 minutes ago, casapete said:

I’m not saying I disagree with the examples shown above - it’s just a matter of perception by insurance companies trying to squirm out of coughing up. Give them any loophole to find as to whether the vehicle was being used for anything other than what it’s says on the insurance document and they will gladly spend time digging deeper. I know we’re only talking small amounts of money being earned by people gigging as a hobby, but as far as the insurance company are concerned it’s a grey area worth checking if it saves them paying out. It’s all numbers to them - they argue that even a part time musician is more likely to be out late at night than say an accountant, that the vehicle will be left parked up in dubious places other than on the driveway, that the vehicle may be used for carrying heavy gear etc etc. I know it’s all bolloc*s but that’s how they work.

 

Exactly. People can argue with each other on here all they like about hobbies, giving people a lift to the pub, invigilating in exams, etc, etc, but it won't make a scrap of difference to the way insurance companies run their affairs. It isn't people on here who need to be convinced, it's the insurers. People are free to take a chance if they wish. It's a free (ish) country. But they shouldn't complain if it blows up in their faces.

[Rosie C]

51 minutes ago, casapete said:

It’s all numbers to them - they argue that even a part time musician is more likely to be out late at night than say an accountant, that the

vehicle will be left parked up in dubious places other than on the driveway, that the vehicle may

be used for carrying heavy gear etc etc. I know it’s all bolloc*s but that’s how they work.

 

I once was involved in a debate with an insurance company years ago over my premium having

been hiked considerably on renewal due to be my being a muso. One of the reasons they cited was

that ‘I may be giving Mick Jagger a lift home’ with the risk of a massive claim etc. Unbelievable.

( Mick always got a cab…) 😆

 

I got the same excuses. The weird thing is my previous insurers didn't mind me doing gigs for free, just not doing gigs for money - so they weren't objecting to carrying gear or being parked at the back of pubs late at night. 

 

6 hours ago, jezzaboy said:

Does doing gigs if you get paid for them come under these conditions? Does anyone else bother?

Thoughts?

 

Enquiries with my previous insurance company revealed they took a very dim view of musicians and would cancel my insurance if I took a paid gig. I figured if I ended up in an accident that resulted in a big claim, and the police recorded the remains of my car had a PA, double bass etc. then the insurance people might try to wriggle out of paying up by saying I'd breached the terms of the insurance. 

 

Once insurance company suggested I claim to be a music teacher! Another said that being a music student could reasonably be expected to involve an occasional paid gig. But in the end I did find a mainstream insurer who gave me a good quote despite declaring "part time work as a musician".

 

[asingardenof]

I already get business use as I occasionally use my car for my day job, and it doesn't add a lot to my premium.

[casapete]

27 minutes ago, Rosie C said:

Once insurance company suggested I claim to be a music teacher!

A band I was in had members who did this. Some were actually teachers but didn’t disclose

gigging all over the country. 

[Maude]

Technically you are not using your car for work, you are commuting to a place of work. 

If you were using your car for business deliveries, or taxiing people around for money, trading as a mobile mechanic etc, then fair enough, you are using your car for work. But just driving your gear to a gig is surely commuting. While you are working (gigging) you are not using your car. 

 

Also, and this is never easily accepted, but insurance companies don't find a get out anywhere near as much as people would like you to believe. In my 35 of being in the insurance repair trade I can't even think of a handful of times when they weaseled out. Usually you simply pay the extra that the relevent cover would've been before we're allowed to repair/release your car.

[Linus27]

14 minutes ago, Maude said:

Technically you are not using your car for work, you are commuting to a place of work. 

If you were using your car for business deliveries, or taxiing people around for money, trading as a mobile mechanic etc, then fair enough, you are using your car for work. But just driving your gear to a gig is surely commuting. While you are working (gigging) you are not using your car. 

 

Also, and this is never easily accepted, but insurance companies don't find a get out anywhere near as much as people would like you to believe. In my 35 of being in the insurance repair trade I can't even think of a handful of times when they weaseled out. Usually you simply pay the extra that the relevent cover would've been before we're allowed to repair/release your car.

 

Yes, exactly this, if fact my wife had her car written off by another driver on the way to work. Insurance company asked for some photos of the damage, sent a chap round to look at the car and then offered a thousand pounds more than the car was worth. Bought it for £4600 and they gave us £5600. Wife's replacement car got hit by an unknown car in a petrol station on the way to work. Again, asked for some photos, they then sent a local repair company to look at it and within a week, the car was taken away, repaired and returned. Following year her premiums went down. No quibble's or questions.

[tauzero]

1 hour ago, Maude said:

Technically you are not using your car for work, you are commuting to a place of work. 

If you were using your car for business deliveries, or taxiing people around for money, trading as a mobile mechanic etc, then fair enough, you are using your car for work. But just driving your gear to a gig is surely commuting. While you are working (gigging) you are not using your car.

 

I think (ICBW) that commuting, in insurance terms, means travel between home and a fixed place of work. For my last job, I had to have business insurance (Direct Line, zero extra cost) so I could drive to a different office.

[jrixn1]

9 hours ago, Linus27 said:

I'm not aware of any musician who is a weekend warrior who declares on their insurance they are a musician or claims it as a second income. […] I am sure also below a certain financial threshold per year, it is classed as a hobby and not a business, professional, trade etc. 

 

However, if a pro or semi-pro (how do you even define this)

You have to register as a sole trader if you earn more than £1000 per year, before deductible expenses.

Eg a £60 pub gig every three weeks.

https://www.gov.uk/set-up-sole-trader

[ossyrocks]

9 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

You have to register as a sole trader if you earn more than £1000 per year, before deductible expenses.

Eg a £60 pub gig every three weeks.

https://www.gov.uk/set-up-sole-trader

 

Yes, the earnings per year are an indicator of whether this is a hobby, or a job.

 

You are allowed to earn up to £1000 a year from your hobby, without declaring income to HMRC. Anything over this falls into the work category. This would be a very good basis on which to consider whether you are working, or it's just a hobby. I'm definitely in the Hobby category.

 

Rob

Edited September 12, 2023 by ossyrocks

[Linus27]

6 minutes ago, ossyrocks said:

 

Yes, the earnings per year are an indicator of whether this is a hobby, or a job.

 

You are allowed to earn up to £1000 a year from your hobby, without declaring income to HMRC. Anything over this falls into the work category. This would be a very good basis on which to consider whether you are working, or it's just a hobby. I'm definitely in the Hobby category.

 

Rob

 

Plus, there is a list of things you can claim back as expenses before submitting your tax return, for example, travel, stage clothes, accommodation, insurance, repairs, consumables etc. The list is huge and we used to claim back on literally everything we possibly could and it went through without any query.