BigBeefChief Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='rslaing' post='481857' date='May 7 2009, 12:40 PM']Please retract your post, you are out of order. Make as many opinions as you like about my opinions, but don't get personal (again). Are you stalking my posts or something? Baiting does not work with me I'm afraid. Thank you[/quote] But any time someone disagrees with your opinions rslaing, you accuse them of getting personal! It's a bit of a cop out to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny-lad Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='481768' date='May 7 2009, 11:34 AM']Regardless on my personal tastes, [b]I don't think Jazz does itself any favours from an image perspective[/b]. I know music shouldn't be about image, but it mostly is! To an outsider looking in, not only is the music pretty inpenetratable, but [b]the image of the elitist jazz musician/listener puts people off[/b]. You read it on here all the time. Jazz fans say "I find Popular music doesn't satisfy me anymore". Maybe it doesn't, and there's nothing wrong with that view, but on a web forum it does sound slightly pompous! I think that part of the appeal of Jazz to some is the feeling that its an exclusive club. If it were to start charting, these fans would move on to another genre. However, this can probably be said for any non-mainstream genre of music. Personally, my views on the music are well documented. As a rule, I tend to stay away from music that is mostly popular with other musos. It does nothing for me.[/quote] Jazz is of great interest to me and, having been brought up on the likes of thin lizzy and iron maiden, it took alot of time and effort to learn about it and find it...I think, at least for myself, part of the problem is the elitist image. So many times I've found myself at a jazz gig, feeling like a complete outsider, even after frequenting them for several years and becoming a competant musician in the style. It doesn't take long to put people off coming to the same gigs, with the same click of musicians and audience members...I've been playing less and less jazz, going to fewer jazz gigs and instead, playing other styles, meeting different people and playing more and enjoying it more! I know that not all jazz is an elitist type of music, but in my experience, the average jazz club is. Popular music isn't elitist - anyone can listen to and be involved in it, and that's why it does well, regardless of how good it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='rslaing' post='481857' date='May 7 2009, 12:40 PM']Please retract your post, you are out of order. Make as many opinions as you like about my opinions, but don't get personal (again) or amend my posts in a cheap attemp to denigrate my views. Are you stalking my posts or something? Baiting does not work with me I'm afraid. Thank you[/quote] You said it was your opinion. So I modified your statements to reflect what they would have been if you had expressed them as if you really believed that they were just your opinion, as opposed to absolute truth (which is how they originally read). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rslaing Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 (edited) [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='481860' date='May 7 2009, 12:43 PM']But any time someone disagrees with your opinions rslaing, you accuse them of getting personal! It's a bit of a cop out to be honest.[/quote] I have no problem with anyone expressing their own opinion ABOUT THE TOPIC, that is surely what this place is for? I will challenge any point I disagree with, but I would not get personal - big difference. It appears that some people don't know the diference. But stalking and baiting, and changing posts then re-publishing them as a quote to try to take the piss is out of order. The difference between commenting on the topic and getting personal is easy. You make your opinion about the subject, you don't say things like "it concerns me that you actually used to teach people" See the difference? Thanks Edited May 7, 2009 by rslaing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='481852' date='May 7 2009, 12:36 PM']My penchant for grot mags alone surely elevates it above a niche market?[/quote] Oh - [i]those [/i]Jazz mags... Sorry, my smut-o-meter's in the shop, being fixed. But trust me, I've had dealings with (some of) these niche music guys and it's a mare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='rslaing' post='481868' date='May 7 2009, 12:46 PM']I will challenge any point I disagree with, but I would not get personal - big difference.[/quote] That's absolute rubbish, mate. What was your view on my university degree, again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomEndian Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 I was only joking about the mortal enemies thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='BottomEndian' post='481873' date='May 7 2009, 12:52 PM'] I was only joking about the mortal enemies thing...[/quote] Hardly. I'd buy him a pint. If he'd lower himself to setting foot in the kind of plebian establishments I frequent, that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='rslaing' post='481827' date='May 7 2009, 12:20 PM']Can someone please define "good music" for me?[/quote] Unfortunately, 'good music' is one of those classic minefield phrases, like 'best bassist'. One man's favourite band is another man's night in hell. Just ask Bilbo and BBC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rslaing Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='maxrossell' post='481871' date='May 7 2009, 12:49 PM']That's absolute rubbish, mate. What was your view on my university degree, again?[/quote] My view on having a music degree, without having the ability to read or write music, is that it has the merits of a degree in knitting (or something like that) It is a bit like having a degree in English without being able to read or write - in my opinion. Or maths, without being able to add 2 + 2. But it was relevant to the topic. I did not slag you off personally, it is my comment on the Music Degree. You have decided to assume I directed it to you as a person. Wrong. You may be a great bloke with lots of talent, and the finest musician in the UK, but I would always question a certificate for something where the basics aren't included in the merit at the end of the course. Don't take it personally, the thread was closed, and I am sure because of that, they do not want it to continue in here, as IT IS NOT RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny-lad Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Bit daft this - I thought the thread was about jazz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XB26354 Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Oh blimey! I got caught up in the previous reading thread and made some personal comments to Max about which I sincerely apologise as they were uncalled for and unnecessary. Now I like Jazz and I like the idea of being free to improvise over a set of chord changes, but it has had extremely limited popularity for a very long time. I've got a fairly wide collection of music (including Jazz) but I like rock, pop, latin, funk whatever. Whilst most genres still produce genuinely brilliant music the vast majority of the jazz I own is 30-60 years old, because that's when it was more popular, and most of the acknowledged "greats" produced their best work. As to it's value, well if you played some as background music in coffee shops or restaurants I'm sure it wouldn't drive everyone away (in fact Caffe Nero play tons of it, for better or worse). BBC is also entirely right about image - as soon as television came along and there was someone to look at as well as to listen to things changed (e.g. the Beatles' moptops, Elvis being filmed from the waist up because his hips were "too provocative"). We all like to say that image isn't important but who really wants to watch a band stare at each other, the floor or their instruments? Mat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 (edited) [quote name='maxrossell' post='481854' date='May 7 2009, 12:38 PM']....a mouthful of asparagus....[/quote] I like Asparagus. But as Francis Albert Sinatra once said: "Asparagus is the vilest and most soul-less form of food. It is mostly eaten by crass, thuggish Rock & Rollers with greasy sideburns and you know what I think about them". Let's not permit this thread descend into Asparagus Good - Asparagus Bad, what's good, what's bad, define good, my opinion, IMHO, is my opinion, I defend your right but, etc, etc, continued page 94 ([i]that's enough guys, locked thread[/i]) It's all very simple, but for those of us who don't get it, here's the deal in plain English * There is no good and bad Asparagus * There is commercially successful Asparagus * There is Asparagus which used to be commercially successful but isn't anymore * Jazz is a form of Asparagus which used to be commercially successful but isn't [s]anymore[/s] as successful as it used to be * The French call it Asperges * Aspergers syndrome has nothing to do with Jazz * Jazz mags are sometimes not about Jazz or Asparagus I thang Yew Edited May 7, 2009 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Best post so far this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomEndian Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='skankdelvar' post='481888' date='May 7 2009, 12:59 PM']* There is no good and bad Asparagus * There is commercially successful Asparagus * There is Asparagus which used to be commercially successful but isn't anymore * Jazz is a form of Asparagus which used to be commercially successful but isn't anymore * The French call it Asperges * Aspergers syndrome has nothing to do with Jazz * Jazz mags are sometimes not about Jazz or Asparagus[/quote] S**t, man. I just spat water all over my laptop. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='rslaing' post='481880' date='May 7 2009, 12:57 PM']Don't take it personally, the thread was closed, and I am sure because of that, they do not want it to continue in here, as IT IS NOT RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC. Thanks[/quote] 1. Describe someone's qualifications that they worked hard to achieve as worthless, they'll take it personally. Anyone with basic social skills understands that. 2. Your slagging off pop music isn't relavant to the topic either, but away you go. Is it a bird... Is it a plane....? No! It's DOUBLE-STANDARDS MAN! Don't take it personally, by the way. It's just my opinion of your opinion of my opinion of your opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johngh Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Can we please leave comments about the Reading Thread out of this thread. That thread was closed, and I won't allow it to get carried over onto this thread. Also please stop the personal slanging match, and play fair or I will close the thread, although I don't see why mods should keep having to close topics because of a few individuals. I won't have any hesitation in dishing out warnings if this continues. Can we have the thread back on topic now please. I thank you ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rslaing Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Johngh' post='481898' date='May 7 2009, 01:04 PM']Can we please leave comments about the Reading Thread out of this thread. That thread was closed, and I won't allow it to get carried over onto this thread. Also please stop the personal slanging match, and play fair or I will close the thread, although I don't see why mods should keep having to close topics because of a few individuals. Can we have the thread back on topic now please.[/quote] Thank you for that................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='rslaing' post='481868' date='May 7 2009, 12:46 PM']You make your opinion about the subject, you don't say things like "it concerns me that you actually used to teach people" See the difference? Thanks[/quote] rslaing, it's no comment on you as a person, but a comment on you as a musical educator. You're refusal to see value in music which doesn't meet you criteria of "proper" makes me question what kind of musical education you will give to others. In relation to this topic, it reinforces by belief that there is a form of elitism that exists within Jazz music, and I'm sure I'm not alone in finding this off putting. What future does Jazz have if the vocal fans of the genre shout down every form of popular music? I think this is killing jazz more than the fretboard w***ery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassMunkee Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='481905' date='May 7 2009, 01:10 PM']rslaing, it's no comment on you as a person, but a comment on you as a musical educator. You're refusal to see value in music which doesn't meet you criteria of "proper" makes me question what kind of musical education you will give to others. In relation to this topic, it reinforces by belief that there is a form of elitism that exists within Jazz music, and I'm sure I'm not alone in finding this off putting. What future does Jazz have if the vocal fans of the genre shout down every form of popular music? I think this is killing jazz more than the fretboard w***ery.[/quote] Oh God - now I'm agreeing with him again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='BassMunkee' post='481911' date='May 7 2009, 01:13 PM']Oh God - now I'm agreeing with him again... [/quote] Don't worry about it, was probably a fluke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny-lad Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 I think jazz lacks the image that anyone can pick up an instrument and learn to play that style of music, whereas with other genres like rock or punk, it's really accessible in that way. I don't think that's a bad thing - for years I felt that it was above my abilities, which made me spend some serious time learning about it because I wanted to better myself and learn more. However, I was playing in a rock band well under a year after I first picked up an instrument. I wouldn't have been able to do that with jazz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 (edited) In support of my earlier contentions, I reproduce this [i]image[/i] of the (late) legendary Jazz DJ, Al 'Jazzbeaux' Collins without comment: Big fan of Asparagus... and other foodstuffs Edited May 7, 2009 by skankdelvar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxrossell Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='skankdelvar' post='481926' date='May 7 2009, 01:21 PM']In support of my earlier contentions, I reproduce this [i]image[/i] of the (late) legendary Jazz DJ, Al 'Jazzbeaux' Collins without comment: [/quote] Oh man, I want one of those hats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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