Insertion Loss - is the EMG abc control the answer?

[Pirellithecat]

I have a Squier P Bass Special, Standard Series.  I'm having to use it for Gigging at the moment as my main bass is off getting fettled. 

It's  fairly well modified and plays extremely well. 

To beef up the sound a little I've added EMG Geezer Butler PJ pickups. 

They do this very well indeed but I find that adjusting one volume control has an unintended effect on the overall sound due to, I'm guessing,  insertion loss.  Effectively with both pots at 100% there's a volume reduction.  Notch one back a little and the volume increases but with difficult to control effects on tone.  I can get the controls into the "right" place for the sound I want, but, on the fly and at gigs with different acoustics it's a bit of a lottery.  

 

I prefer a blend control to 2 volumes, and wondered about adding an EMG abc control to deal with insertion loss and a blend control. 

 

Anyone have experience with these devices, or, indeed, any other solutions?  

[neepheid]

2 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

I have a Squier P Bass Special, Standard Series.  I'm having to use it for Gigging at the moment as my main bass is off getting fettled. 

It's  fairly well modified and plays extremely well. 

To beef up the sound a little I've added EMG Geezer Butler PJ pickups. 

They do this very well indeed but I find that adjusting one volume control has an unintended effect on the overall sound due to, I'm guessing,  insertion loss.  Effectively with both pots at 100% there's a volume reduction.  Notch one back a little and the volume increases but with difficult to control effects on tone.  I can get the controls into the "right" place for the sound I want, but, on the fly and at gigs with different acoustics it's a bit of a lottery.  

 

I prefer a blend control to 2 volumes, and wondered about adding an EMG abc control to deal with insertion loss and a blend control. 

 

Anyone have experience with these devices, or, indeed, any other solutions?  

 

Pickups out of phase?

[fretmeister]

I have an ABC and an ABCX with a set of EMG-J and PJ-X respectively.

I think they are excellent.

 

The only thing I don't know about is whether the GZR can use them as IIRC those pickups are passive.

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, neepheid said:

 

Pickups out of phase?

Of course them being out of phase makes it even worse, but what OP describes is perfectly in line with how passive pickups normally works when mixed passively.

 

 

And to OP, yes the EMG ABC should fix this, basically functioning as if you had a separate jack output for each pickup and actively mixing them in parallel on an outboard mixer.

 

Does require power from a 9V battery though, but I think it is listed to last up to a 1000 hours of actively plugged in use, so not like you will end up having to change battery every other week.

 

 

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

I have an ABC and an ABCX with a set of EMG-J and PJ-X respectively.

I think they are excellent.

 

The only thing I don't know about is whether the GZR can use them as IIRC those pickups are passive.

The EMG ABC is made specifically for passive pickups to avoid the natural signal loss and mutual interference you get when mixing two passive pickups passively.

 

So yes, it'll work perfectly. 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks, yes the insertion loss is surprisingly noticeable - I have rechecked the wiring and it is as per the EMG diagram.  As the terminals are push fit and the wires black or white, I'm pretty sure it's as intended - even if my ears say something's amiss.   However, I have always had issues with mixing 2 passive pickup to the extent of wiring this bass with a stereo output , one pickup to each channel, and then via a stereo lead to a small preamp/mixer on the pedal board.   Worked, but not really that practical in the end!!   An EMG abc - even with extra routing, seems like a good idea. 😅 

[Hellzero]

The EMG Geezer Butler are PASSIVE pickups and the EMG ABC(X), meaning Active Balance Control (2 x 25 KOhms) is intended for ACTIVE pickups, so it won't work here.

 

What you need is an MN type balance control in 250 KOhms or 500 KOhms to avoid that insertion loss.

 

Guys, read before answering...

[Pirellithecat]

From the EMG product info .......
General Operation The B125 Active Balance Control (ABC) is used to pan between two EMG-HZ pickups rather than use a selection switch. The B125 features input buffer amps for each pickup, so if you have 2 Passive Pickups, 2 Active EMG Pickups, or are mixing an active with a passive pickup you can use the B125 Active Balance control. Pickups can be connected by connectors or hand soldered to the PC board. The control has a center detent (click) in its rotation.

 

Am I missing something - maybe  the X??

[Pirellithecat]

I guess the other option, given the need for routing, is to go completely Active which would give the opportunity for better tone control too. 
All a bit daft on what is now a "scrap" bass, but it plays very well indeed - one of the nicest necks I've tried. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, Hellzero said:

The EMG Geezer Butler are PASSIVE pickups and the EMG ABC(X), meaning Active Balance Control (2 x 25 KOhms) is intended for ACTIVE pickups, so it won't work here.

 

What you need is an MN type balance control in 250 KOhms or 500 KOhms to avoid that insertion loss.

 

Guys, read before answering...

 

How about you taking your own advice.

 

And stop smugly laughing, like as if you knew better, of people who do actually read up on it before answering.

 

And no a higher resistance pot won't fix the insertion loss that happens with all passive pickup mixing either.

 

1 hour ago, Pirellithecat said:

From the EMG product info .......
General Operation The B125 Active Balance Control (ABC) is used to pan between two EMG-HZ pickups rather than use a selection switch. The B125 features input buffer amps for each pickup, so if you have 2 Passive Pickups, 2 Active EMG Pickups, or are mixing an active with a passive pickup you can use the B125 Active Balance control. Pickups can be connected by connectors or hand soldered to the PC board. The control has a center detent (click) in its rotation.

 

Am I missing something - maybe  the X??

 

 

I don't see any X version mentioned in the OP either.

 

Yes, the EMG ABC is for passive pickups.

 

Just like I said.

 

And why the resistance of the pot isn't higher is because this basically is a miniature active mixer, which is the whole point with it in the first place.

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Hellzero]

Self reminder: stop helping people.

 

@Baloney Balderdash, looks like you don't know what an MN type balance control is.

 

There's a simple solution @Pirellithecat and you can stay passive all the way.

 

If you put your 250 KOhms volume and tone control after the EMG ABC, it will almost have no action, especially the tone control, as you'll get out of the balance in low impedance and then enter your volume and tone control intended to work with a signal in high impedance : a nice impedance mismatching will result with a very poor sound...

 

But do it the way you want, it's your money after all.

[Baloney Balderdash]

27 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Self reminder: stop helping people.

 

@Baloney Balderdash, looks like you don't know what an MN type balance control is.

 

There's a simple solution @Pirellithecat and you can stay passive all the way.

 

If you put your 250 KOhms volume and tone control after the EMG ABC, it will almost have no action, especially the tone control, as you'll get out of the balance in low impedance and then enter your volume and tone control intended to work with a signal in high impedance : a nice impedance mismatching will result with a very poor sound...

 

But do it the way you want, it's your money after all.

 

Nonsense...

 

Looks like you don't know what you are talking about, or rather you do a good job to make it look like you know what you are talking about, except it is all actually factual nonsense.

 

This isn't any different from having a separate jack output from each of your pickups respectively and mixing them in parallel on an outboard active mixer.

 

And no matter how you mix two passive pickups passively they will interact with each other and cancel out parts of the signals they reproduce respectively, an issue using an active mixer fixes.

 

Please stop pretending you know better and give people bad advice will you.

 

Like as if you know better than EMG's engineers. 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[fretmeister]

1 hour ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

 

How about you taking your own advice.

 

And stop smugly laughing, like as if you knew better, of people who do actually read up on it before answering.

 

And no a higher resistance pot won't fix the insertion loss that happens with all passive pickup mixing either.

 

 

 

I don't see any X version mentioned in the OP either.

 

Yes, the EMG ABC is for passive pickups.

 

Just like I said.

 

And why the resistance of the pot isn't higher is because this basically is a miniature active mixer, which is the whole point with it in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

Most non-X Series pickups are still active but do come with a passive tone pot. The X Series come with an Active Tone pot and need the ABCX.

So the ABC is not actually for passive pickups, it's for any non-X series that comes with a passive tone control, whether the pickups are active or passive doesn't appear to matter.

 

So should be fine with the GZR set.

 

UNLESS - the ABC control has been around far longer than the GZR set. It wouldn't be the first time that a company hasn't updated website copy properly.

 

As the ABC is about £80 I think I'd email EMG for clarification before I spent the money.

[Baloney Balderdash]

16 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

 

 

Most non-X Series pickups are still active but do come with a passive tone pot. The X Series come with an Active Tone pot and need the ABCX.

So the ABC is not actually for passive pickups, it's for any non-X series that comes with a passive tone control, whether the pickups are active or passive doesn't appear to matter.

 

So should be fine with the GZR set.

 

UNLESS - the ABC control has been around far longer than the GZR set. It wouldn't be the first time that a company hasn't updated website copy properly.

 

As the ABC is about £80 I think I'd email EMG for clarification before I spent the money.

The GZR is not EMG's first all passive bass pickup, and logic dictates that it if works for pickups with a passive volume and tone setup it will work for any other pickup with the same setup, EMG produced or not, also the text basically says is works for passive pickups (implicating all passive pickups, not just EMG produced).

 

As I've pointed out several times by now already in this thread this isn't any different from a jack output for each pickup and an outboard active mixer, it's just onboard and much much smaller. 

 

One thing OP should be aware of though is that it will sound different than when blending the 2 pickups passively as the signals won't cancel out and interact with each other in that same way as when mixing them passively, which might or might not be a desired effect.

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[fretmeister]

6 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

The GZR is not EMG's first all passive bass pickup, and logic dictates that it if works for pickups with a passive volume and tone setup it will work for any other pickup with the same setup, EMG produced or not, also the text basically says is works for passive pickups (implicating all passive pickups, not just EMG produced).

 

This isn't any different from a jack output for each pickup and an outboard active mixer, it's just onboard and much much smaller. 

 

 

Sorry - but that's not what it says.

 

It says "...designed to work with all OUR non-X series pickups that use a passive tone control..."

 

I don't think you can safely imply anything from that. Considering the unit costs £80 it is well worth the OP asking EMG directly.

 

Or of course if you are that certain you could offer to buy the unit from the OP at the price he paid if it doesn't work.

[Baloney Balderdash]

4 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

 

Sorry - but that's not what it says.

 

It says "...designed to work with all OUR non-X series pickups that use a passive tone control..."

 

I don't think you can safely imply anything from that. Considering the unit costs £80 it is well worth the OP asking EMG directly.

 

Or of course if you are that certain you could offer to buy the unit from the OP at the price he paid if it doesn't work.

I don't think he'll appreciate having to pay double shipping and import fee.

 

Also what is this nonsense, since when are you expected to put out the money and going through the effort of ordering yourself, just because you are advising people, if this is in fact expected, then sure, I will with all certainty stop helping people out all together on this forum.  

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[fretmeister]

1 minute ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

I don't think he'll appreciate having to pay double shipping and import fee.

 

From the OP. Not for the OP.

[Baloney Balderdash]

5 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

 

From the OP. Not for the OP.

Or how about buying them a new car?

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[fretmeister]

10 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Or how about buying them a new car?

 

If you are that confident in your advice, go right ahead. You could buy some irrelevant moving goalposts while you are at it. 

[Hellzero]

Good luck @fretmeister, you're talking to Mister I Know Everything And You Are All Idiots aka @Baloney Balderdash.

 

I'll stop here as he's just telling utter bullshìt and I'm really tired talking to these kinds of persons, especially those who refuse simple solutions as there's always one.

[fretmeister]

@Hellzero I know. I was more worried that the OP might spend money on something that didn’t work for him. 
 

[3below]

Given the 🔥 in this discussion, I will reiterate the advice that @Pirellithecat should contact EMG and seek their advice over the specific situation. I would be interested in the result, my SG bass pickups really interact with each other, I have often thought an active op amp mixer circuit might be the way forward.

[fretmeister]

I’ve got a passive bass that is afflicted, so I’ve emailed EMG too.

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, Hellzero said:

Good luck @fretmeister, you're talking to Mister I Know Everything And You Are All Idiots aka @Baloney Balderdash.

 

I'll stop here as he's just telling utter bullshìt and I'm really tired talking to these kinds of persons, especially those who refuse simple solutions as there's always one.

 

Your very first reply in this thread, and adding laughing reaction to factual correct posts actually trying to be helpful to OP! :

4 hours ago, Hellzero said:

The EMG Geezer Butler are PASSIVE pickups and the EMG ABC(X), meaning Active Balance Control (2 x 25 KOhms) is intended for ACTIVE pickups, so it won't work here.

 

What you need is an MN type balance control in 250 KOhms or 500 KOhms to avoid that insertion loss.

 

Guys, read before answering...

 

 

We'll see who laughs when EMG confirms what I have been saying all the time.

 

But of course i don't know what I am talking about, while you do, even if they do, which they will. 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[fretmeister]

Answer in already.

 

Yes, it will work with the GZR set, and will need a battery.

[tauzero]

Or, just to stop the sound and fury signifying nothing, get a dual buffer Bartolini AGDB. 

 

https://bartolini.net/product/agb/ - product details (AGB is single buffer, AGDB is dual)

 

https://bartolini.net/wp-content/uploads/Docs/Electronics/Buffers/AGDB-918-2-V-B-T.pdf - shows how to connect V-B-T. Note that Bartolini don't say it's for their pickups.

 

🏁