Insertion Loss - is the EMG abc control the answer?

[Hellzero]

Won't trust EMG anymore, this denotes a total absence of knowledge of the signal path and only the will to sell.

 

They should have said: It's OK, but as the balance will be the first in the signal chain, don't forget to put a volume and tone with a 25 KOhms value and a 100 nF capacitor as they will come after the ABC in the signal chain, if you want to be able to use them correctly.

[Baloney Balderdash]

4 hours ago, Hellzero said:

Good luck @fretmeister, you're talking to Mister I Know Everything And You Are All Idiots aka @Baloney Balderdash.

 

I'll stop here as he's just telling utter bullshìt and I'm really tired talking to these kinds of persons, especially those who refuse simple solutions as there's always one.

3 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

We'll see who laughs when EMG confirms what I have been saying all the time.

 

But of course i don't know what I am talking about, while you do, even if they do, which they will. 

2 hours ago, fretmeister said:

Answer in already.

 

Yes, it will work with the GZR set, and will need a battery.

45 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Won't trust EMG anymore, this denotes a total absence of knowledge of the signal path and only the will to sell.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Pirellithecat]

Well .... just popped out to listen to some live music and find all this.  

Thanks for the engagement and advice and the info via Fretmeister from EMG , and Tauzero re. Bartolini options - I'll read up on this tomorrow. 
Cheers all, sleep well.

[Gwilym]

From the EMG ABC installation instructions:

 

Installation notes: The output impedance of the ABC is low, so the existing high resistance volume and tone controls will not work when placed after the ABC. The active tone control (VLPF) is required for tone. Any of the EMG Accessories like the  EXB, BTC or BTS Controls, BQC or BQS Controls, or OEM Models B30eq or B64eq can be added as well.

 

I think this is @Hellzero's point? 

[Hellzero]

This is exactly it @Gwilym, and it's what I'm saying since the beginning of this thread, but some people with absolutely no knowledge in electronics weren't able to understand it.

 

Glad that EMG mentioned it too in their ABC manual, but it's strange that this Alex guy didn't do it.

 

And in the OP case, a simple MN taper balance pot of 250 or 500 KOhms will solve this typical insertion loss issue keeping all the signal a totally passive path.

 

Some people here owe me some apologies.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Hellzero
Spelling and missing word

[Hellzero]

By the way @tauzero a dual buffer like the Bartolini you mentioned won't solve the insertion loss, it turns the output in low impedance and can enable an adjustable gain (this very model), fixed gain or even unity gain, simply put buffering the signal.

 

What is solving the insertion loss is a blend control with MN taper and strangely as the Bartolini buffer is a low impedance circuitry all pots are ... 25 KOhms.

 

 

What's an MN taper blend pot:

 

[Baloney Balderdash]

32 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

By the way @tauzero a dual buffer like the Bartolini you mentioned won't solve the insertion loss, it turns the output in low impedance and can enable an adjustable gain (this very model), fixed gain or even unity gain, simply put buffering the signal.

 

What is solving the insertion loss is a blend control with MN taper and strangely as the Bartolini buffer is a low impedance circuitry all pots are ... 25 KOhms.

 

 

What's an MN taper blend pot:

 

So connecting two passive magnetic pickups to a passive MN taper blend pot gives the same result as if mixing the separate respective isolated outputs from each pickup (being connected to each their own jack output socket on the bass) on an outboard active mixer? 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Hellzero]

1 hour ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

So connecting two passive magnetic pickups to a passive MN taper blend pot gives the same result as if mixing the separate respective isolated outputs from each pickup (being connected to each their own jack output socket on the bass) on an outboard active mixer? 

 

I truly think you have absolutely no electronics knowledge at all, but feel the urge to comment everything without even understanding a single thing.

[Hellzero]

1 hour ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

So connecting two passive magnetic pickups to a passive MN taper blend pot gives the same result as if mixing the separate respective isolated outputs from each pickup (being connected to each their own jack output socket on the bass) on an outboard active mixer? 

 

I truly think you have absolutely no electronics knowledge at all, but feel the urge to comment everything without even understanding a single thing.

[Hellzero]

1 hour ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

So connecting two passive magnetic pickups to a passive MN taper blend pot gives the same result as if mixing the separate respective isolated outputs from each pickup (being connected to each their own jack output socket on the bass) on an outboard active mixer? 

 

I truly think you have absolutely no electronics knowledge at all, but feel the urge to comment everything without even understanding a single thing.

[Baloney Balderdash]

2 hours ago, Hellzero said:

I truly think you have absolutely no electronics knowledge at all, but feel the urge to comment everything without even understanding a single thing.

 

2 hours ago, Hellzero said:

I truly think you have absolutely no electronics knowledge at all, but feel the urge to comment everything without even understanding a single thing.

 

2 hours ago, Hellzero said:

I truly think you have absolutely no electronics knowledge at all, but feel the urge to comment everything without even understanding a single thing.

 

Well, at least that puts me in the same boat as EMG's engineers.

 

I can live with that.

 

I guess we all can't be geniuses like you. 

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[binky_bass]

15 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

 

 

 

Well, at least that puts me in the same boat as EMG's engineers.

 

I can live with that.

 

I guess we all can't be geniuses like you. 

 

It's not a case of being a genius or not, it's a case of actually knowing what you're talking about vs wanting to sound like you know what you're talking about. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, binky_bass said:

It's not a case of being a genius or not, it's a case of actually knowing what you're talking about vs wanting to sound like you know what you're talking about. 

Then perhaps you would care to explain to me why it is that passively mixing two passive pickups using an MN tapered pot would give you just the same result as if they were mixed individually actively, cause I don't think anyone actually did explain how that can possibly happen?

 

Other than claiming it is so because I am too stupid to know why, which I don't really think is a valid explanation.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Pirellithecat]

Well, not wishing to put a cat amongst pigeons, it seems that both manufacturers believe they have a solution to the insertion issue.  However, as I need to get a router into action for either solution might it be better to consider all purely active options at this point.   What's the downside ??  

[binky_bass]

2 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Then perhaps you would care to explain to me why it is that passively mixing two passive pickups using an MN tapered pot would give you just the same result as if they were mixed individually actively, cause I don't think anyone actually did explain how that can possibly happen?

 

Other than claiming it is so because I am too stupid to know why, which I don't really think is a valid explanation.

 

 

I'm not suggesting you're one or the other of the potential two examples in my prior comment. I know full well I don't have the expertise to weigh in on these technical matters, so I don't. 

[ahpook]

Hey, remember the OP ? You know, the person who asked a perfectly reasonable question, just to watch their thread turn into a argument ?

 

I wonder how they're getting on ? Probrably on Reddit, getting a reasonable answer. 🤣

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by ahpook

[Pirellithecat]

At the risk of inciting a riot, the EMGabc and the Bartolini offering seem to do be fairly similar in what they do.   The fact that I cannot successfully e-mail EMG demonstrates my lack of technical prowess, so one more quick question if I may.   The EMG abc product information refers to an Active Tone  pot.    Does anyone know if this is something different to the Tone Pot supplied with the GZPJ pickup kit?   Alternatively anyone have Alex (from emg)'s email address.   Using the Contact section of their web Page just tells me that my CAPTCHA reputation is too low to be able to submit my enquiry! 

[Hellzero]

@Pirellithecat, your question has its answer in my numerous replies and as I said if you want to keep your signal path totally passive, put an MN taper blend and everything will work perfectly, still using the original GZR pots.

 

The EMG ABC and the Bartolini AGDB are not per se exactly the same things, they both are buffer preamps for sure, but the ABC includes the 25 KOhms MN taper blend abd everything is totally solder less when you have to buy it separately for the AGDB and solder everything.

 

Your EMG GZR tone pot is a passive model, so you'll need to buy an EMG active tone pot that EMG is selling, of course, but the total amount of the ABC and the active pot will be the same as buying a new set of pickups...

 

[Pirellithecat]

EMG confirm that I will need the Active Tone Pot in combination with the ABC.   
So there you go - so, all in all, it ends up a pretty hefty upgrade for a "scrap" bass, but, I do like it, and I only have further mod "available" and that's to refinish it in Fiesta Red! 

 

Thanks everyone for you input.

[Pirellithecat]

Update.   It's not the Active Tone pot I need ......... it's the 25k passive one.  
Which is Good News from the financial point to view.  

[Hellzero]

9 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Update.   It's not the Active Tone pot I need ......... it's the 25k passive one.  
Which is Good News from the financial point to view.  

Delirious, as it's what I said since the beginning and even explained why. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[Pirellithecat]

Just for the record - in case anyone else finds themselves in the same situation. 

The EMG ABC, does NOT include the necessary tone pot.  You have to buy one separately. 

This NOT the Active VLPF (@ £70+), but the EMG 25K Solderless  Tone Pot (passive) @£15.

 

Once I've finished modding my bass,  I'll be sure to update this thread with the outcome i.e. does it work as intended.  Might be useful for future reference. 

 

By the way, EMG have been excellent in terms of customer support - even offered to send me the tone pot FOC, (but as I'm in the UK, it didn't make sense to send one from the USA).  Rapid, friendly communication and very helpful.   Full marks!

[Pirellithecat]

Update - 

Whilst waiting for the ABC control the 25K tone pot arrived.   Expecting the ABC tomorrow so I thought I'd check out the available space in preparation for routing out a battery box etc.  Being one for instant gratification I bunged the tone pot in anyway just to see .........  

Bloody Hell! 

 

Just wasted the afternoon playing my part modded bass .... it's transformed. 

The tone knob now actually makes a significant difference (to the, er, ... tone..) and the insertion loss, whilst still there, is diminished.  

 

So far only played via 'phones, but its a real difference.  

 

If the ABC control achieves the predictable blend that I'm after, this bass will be an absolute killer. 

 

Just got to be patient though ....  I could easily transform it to firewood with a router .......

 

( and yes I expect incoming remarks ....) 😅

 

[ahpook]

Huzzah ! Glad you're getting tonez

 

[Pirellithecat]

Update.

 

First.   Tried a Fender Performer P this week.   PJ set up and insertion loss just like my pre mod Squire.

 

Second

Completed all the cavity routing and battery box added.  Added all the bits. And reassembled.

 

Third

BRILLIANT!!!

Works a treat.    Usable blend control to give predicable mix of each pickup.

I'd recommend it and, should I ever have another passive PJ, I'd immediately add the EMG ABC control, or go active

 

EMG have been brilliant throughout, lots of questions answered and very helpful.  Big callout for Alison at their HQ.

 

Result!!