Cheapest "ergonomically safe" and "decent" EUB

[Paolo85]

Hi all,

 

So, I tried a Stagg EUB a while ago and it did not really work for me. I have a history of tendinitis. I understand with a DB one uses the weigh of the arm and shoulder to play on the fingerboard. Without squeezing strings between the thumb and the other fingers, which could cause injury.

I understand "stick" shaped EUBs make this very difficult.

So I wonder, what's the cheapest I can go to get an ergonomycally safe playing experience? It does not have to feel like a proper DB. As long as it keeps the risk of injury at minimum.

Hopefully, something without a lumpy fingerboard (my Stagg's was not very good really) would also be good

Thanks

[Downunderwonder]

Show me a photo of someone using the weight of their shoulder and arm to put pressure on strings.

[Paolo85]

Weigh may not be the correct word. What I meant is explaiend here 

Bottom line, it seems you don't just squeeze strings between the thumb and the other fingers as in an EB. The DB is stable (leans on you) and you use bigger arm-shoulder muscles to play. From memory, some instructional videos describe the effortless nature of the movement as using the "weigh" of the arm. Maybe they just describe a feel, but the slight angle of the db may allows for some contribution from gravity (from a quick google, but don't hold me to it, a 15% angle would allow to transfer 9% of the weigh of the arm. A 10% angle though would not be sufficient to transfer anything).

Regardless, and EUB for me would need to be either on a properly solid stand, or be designed so that it leans on the body well. The little metal "arm" of the Stagg did not work for me, I was always keeping it in balance with my thumb.

The cheapest options I see on Thomann that from the picture seem to fit the description are the warwich triumph and the NS Design WAV4c. Just wonder how both feel in therms of balancing for those who tried them and if there's a cheaper option

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Paolo85

[NickA]

Don't really understand.  Don't you play a double bass and and EUB the same way? And yes you can use your thumb to pluck against, you hook your right thumb under the fingerboard.  You don't pluck directly across the strings either, more a diagonal movement using the side of your first and/or second finger.

 

Maybe have a basic start up lesson.

 

I've had far fewer right hand tendon issues from double bass playing than from bass guitar.

 

The usual EUB issue is that they tend to twizel around whereas the dB stays locked to your body as you kind of wrap yourself around it.

[Paolo85]

Right, I apologise because obviously I am not talking clearly

 

4 minutes ago, NickA said:

The usual EUB issue is that they tend to twizel around whereas the dB stays locked to your body as you kind of wrap yourself around it.

 

Yes that's the problem I am talking about. I at no point was meaning to discuss plucking technique.

If the pressure of the left hand (for a right-handed player) moves the EUB around, the left-hand thumb has to kick in to stabilise. This is not what is recommended as a safe DB technique in all instructional videos I have watched.

So what one has to buy for a stable EUB? Yamaha silent bass? Just buy a stagg and attach it to a good stand? Would the Warwich Triumph hold stable?

[Downunderwonder]

The Stagg hip prop is made of aluminium so it can be customized to you. It can't twizzle if it's on your hip.

[Paul S]

I modified my Stagg by fixing a stand to it - kept it fairly firmly in place for playing.  I found it much easier than using the spike.

 

[Paolo85]

19 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

The Stagg hip prop is made of aluminium so it can be customized to you. It can't twizzle if it's on your hip.

It wasn't my experience but maybe that's just down to lack of technique

[sandy_r]

6 hours ago, Paolo85 said:

Hi all,

 

.

So I wonder, what's the cheapest I can go to get an ergonomycally safe playing experience? It does not have to feel like a proper DB. As long as it keeps the risk of injury at minimum.

Hopefully, something without a lumpy fingerboard (my Stagg's was not very good really) would also be good

Thanks

 

I don't know if any of my experience might relate...

 

I wanted to try for a low-cost EUB that was light and easy to play, so I had my Sinsonido converted to fretless, removed the top half of an old mike stand and use the upper bout of the guitar only, to rest it against me. The mike stand takes all the weight and requires almost no support of the guitar neck

 

So it's a bit similar to the Stagg on a stand - but presumably a lot cheaper?

 

[Paul S]

Another option might be a Dean Pace, although they dopn't appear very often.  35" scale, almost flat radius board, so not exactly a DB experience to play, but quite fun.  They come with a *really* sturdy stand that has a nifty swivel joint that keeps it as whatever angle you'd like.

[Paolo85]

54 minutes ago, sandy_r said:

 

I don't know if any of my experience might relate...

 

I wanted to try for a low-cost EUB that was light and easy to play, so I had my Sinsonido converted to fretless, removed the top half of an old mike stand and use the upper bout of the guitar only, to rest it against me. The mike stand takes all the weight and requires almost no support of the guitar neck

 

So it's a bit similar to the Stagg on a stand - but presumably a lot cheaper?

 

Now that's a cool idea! I mean, ultimately I'd want to have a full 3/4 size, but I have a cheap fretless, already butchered as I was experimenting stuff, currently not used really, which I may decide to drill on a stand just to see how it feels to play upright. The completely flat radius of that fretless may be a big issue though.

Then maybe I'll wait for any cheap EUB to come up for sale at a time that suit my finances and do what @Paul S did!

[Silvia Bluejay]

@Paolo85, if you can get hold of the tripod from an NS Design (or similar) and adapt it, or even modify a tripod from a drumkit - as a BCer* once did IIRC - you can attach any cheap EUB to such contraption and simply have it stand up of its own accord with no effort or contortion required of either your plucking/bowing or fingering hand.

 

Some will say that the beauty of playing double bass is hugging the body of the instrument in order to hold it in the most comfortable position.

 

-- slightly OT --

My experience:

Since I'm so small that a 'proper' double bass would have to hold me upright, rather than vice versa, I have one of the abovementioned NS Designs (an NXT 5) and an Eminence. Neither, I'm afraid, would qualify as remotely 'cheap' as per your request. The former I simply couldn't afford to buy new now, as I did in 2011, and the latter is a present which, in any case, does need a spacer bracket; however, being slimmer and shallower than a DB, it's less hard to keep in place in a comfortable position, at least for me.

 

Good luck with your search, don't give up on playing upright.

 

* Can anyone remember who that was, or even better find a link to their thread?

Edited September 17, 2023 by Silvia Bluejay

[Paolo85]

Does anybody have good ideas on hi

ow to stick a heavy P bass onto this? https://www.gear4music.com/Drums-and-Percussion/Heavy-Duty-Cymbal-Stand-by-Gear4music/1J60

 

Or maybe @Paul S , @sandy_r would you be happy to show how yours attach to the stand?

 

Thanks!

Edited September 17, 2023 by Paolo85

[sandy_r]

49 minutes ago, Paolo85 said:

 

Or maybe @Paul S , @sandy_r would you be happy to show how yours attach to the stand?

 

 

nothing complicated, here - I removed the upper section of an old lightweight mic. stand, leaving the lower section unaltered on its base.  The top of what remains is now the hollow plastic housing of the original compression nut/handle into which the upper section slid 

 

I locate the end strap button of the bass into this hollow and balance the bass upright, leaning the upper bout against me (so the bass is not fixed, it just rests in place, and leans lightly against my fretting hand and my upper body)

 

I use this arrangement now with my Sinsonido, which is very light, but I've also used it with my hollow-body Hagstrom 'Viking' (fretted) bass, and even on a couple of occasions with my Yamaha BB4 fretless (not ideal on this lightweight mic. stand)

 

I don't know that it warrants a photo of the stand, but happy to provide if it helps

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by sandy_r

[sandy_r]

1 hour ago, Paolo85 said:

Does anybody have good ideas on hiow to stick a heavy P bass onto this? 

https://www.gear4music.com/Drums-and-Percussion/Heavy-Duty-Cymbal-Stand-by-Gear4music/1J60

 

Since the top section of the stand can be adjusted for angle from vertical, it looks likely that you can use the stand as-is, and maybe sink a suitably internal-thread tube (perpendicularly, or angled?) into the body of the bass as near as possible to its centre of gravity, obviously taking care to avoid conflict with neck/body/pickup fixing arrangements. Once the bass-to-stand connection is made, in prep for each playing, you should be able then to lock the bass to a comfortable angle

 

Personally, from a stability PoV, I'd want to get a much lighter-bodied bass - an old beat up P bass with its 'wings' clipped (and controls re-positioned) might be ok

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by sandy_r

[Downunderwonder]

I recommend not going down the BG on a stick route. The flatness of the fingerboard can only give you bad juju at both ends forcing you to adapt your  techniques to its cranky form.

 

The Stagg has holes for the rests both sides. You could make a set of more substantial additions to better mimic a full body experience and use those holes to key into. Kinda defeating the main aim of the stick ie portability, but suits your purpose.

[Paul S]

8 hours ago, Paolo85 said:

Does anybody have good ideas on hi

ow to stick a heavy P bass onto this? https://www.gear4music.com/Drums-and-Percussion/Heavy-Duty-Cymbal-Stand-by-Gear4music/1J60

 

Or maybe @Paul S , @sandy_r would you be happy to show how yours attach to the stand?

 

Thanks!

 

I bought a reasonably cheap tattooist's arm rest on eBay, which has an easily detatchable padded, erm, pad that you would rest your arm on.  I unscrewed the pad, worked out where the balance point was for the EUB to sit steadily on the stand (that is the important bit), then fixed the arm pad fixing to the back of the Stagg.  It kind of straddled the access panel at the back.  From there is was a simple matter to slide and unslide the bass into position.  it isn't as heavy duty as a drum stand but good enough and very easily adapted.

 

One of these, in fact:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394826558394?hash=item5bed7f2bba:g:q~UAAOSwAExjKfE-&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4BgNvAmcNs3MzccYnPanP%2BgqN6aWcGlKLUXtkH8uAzkLO6sqKhF3N0Se3D0JmJAdFixgNo9GajQ9tFaztK0jnzht8baAJJ7XGrGD3LyON7I2xoH%2BBfT2mE7c55tJUgVxeGXYoxZRJFvsvTpHulfAJCc18PGGFn9xz3c%2BwnEM7dOG9ByY4p6adU6lV3b05RYkM6uRSovdmGPLwNKZzzQ8nKqhIUcKL01l5JM7VoX1puIDvro4oTwx6Hy1IuLNx1pCbbh7qOkDg7Z%2F%2BBUxDefHR%2BxVg3JyVkysbslobPr9Th39|tkp%3ABk9SR6ScqvLUYg

 

 

At the same time I removed the end pin, which saved weight and the inclination to rattle inside.  I also moved the bridge tailpiece so it would take regular sized BD strings.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Paul S

[Rosie C]

On 17/09/2023 at 04:40, Paolo85 said:

Hi all,

 

So, I tried a Stagg EUB a while ago and it did not really work for me. I have a history of tendinitis. I understand with a DB one uses the weigh of the arm and shoulder to play on the fingerboard. Without squeezing strings between the thumb and the other fingers, which could cause injury.

 

 

I could have written this post. I bought a "Gear 4 Music" branded EUB which looks much like a Stagg one. The only way to play it that I could find was squeezing with my LH thumb - something my teacher called "strangling the goose" or something, and said would cause tendon problems. I bought an NS stand from Thomann and fitted that - it was better, but still not the same as an acoustic upright. In the end I sold it and now have a cheap 3/4 acoustic which can be played in the recommended "pulling from the elbow" way.

 

[Paolo85]

23 minutes ago, Rosie C said:

 

I could have written this post. I bought a "Gear 4 Music" branded EUB which looks much like a Stagg one. The only way to play it that I could find was squeezing with my LH thumb - something my teacher called "strangling the goose" or something, and said would cause tendon problems. I bought an NS stand from Thomann and fitted that - it was better, but still not the same as an acoustic upright. In the end I sold it and now have a cheap 3/4 acoustic which can be played in the recommended "pulling from the elbow" way.

 

I wish I could do that! The problem is that I mostly play late at night

[Silvia Bluejay]

@Paul S, I may have been thinking about your solution, rather than a drumkit modification. Thanks for adding that info on here.

 

@Rosie C, @Paolo85, incidentally - and sorry if I sound prescriptive - with anything long scale and held vertically you should always use the proper double bass method of plucking and fingering. Never play an upright like a normal bass, your muscles and tendons will soon let you know that they're not happy. Hence, as you both note, the need for the damn thing to be comfortable to hold.

In theory I could get away with playing my NS NXT like an oversized bass guitar when the action is low, because it's been designed to basically play itself (like butter? Let's not go there!). However, I deliberately raise the action a bit and play it like a DB. Just to be safe.

[JPJ]

Firstly, I should state I have an old motorcycling injury which affects my left thumb. My DB journey started with the Stagg, which is surprising good for the money, but a pain to play comfortably as I could never find the sweet spot of balance with that wire frame. I moved on to a KK Baby Bass which was obviously quite a step up in quality but despite the faux body, was no easier to balance and was a lot heavier on my left thumb as a result, causing hand problems after a very short period of playing standing up (I could balance it nicely sitting down, but the gig I bought it for was not a sitty down type of gig). I've now moved on to the NS NXT which is comfortable for me to play both on the stand, and and on the end pin with body rest. I can use my left arm weight to protect my thumb as I am no longer supporting the EUB whilst playing. 

Reading through this thread, it seems to me that the answer in your case may well be some sort of robust stand for the Stagg. 

[Rosie C]

6 hours ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

 

@Rosie C, @Paolo85, incidentally - and sorry if I sound prescriptive - with anything long scale and held vertically you should always use the proper double bass method of plucking and fingering.

 

I quite agree - at the time I bought it I was taking lessons with a classical double bass teacher and had a reasonable understanding of the correct technique - it very quickly became clear that I wouldn't be able to play an EUB so swapped to an acoustic.

[JoeEvans]

In my limited experience a really significant part of left hand technique, in terms of not straining the hand, is just playing on the tips of your fingers, so that the last joint of the finger is up off the board rather than being flat across the string.

[NickA]

15 hours ago, JoeEvans said:

In my limited experience a really significant part of left hand technique, in terms of not straining the hand, is just playing on the tips of your fingers, so that the last joint of the finger is up off the board rather than being flat across the string.

Absolutely!  But won't help the op with the twizzling eub issue. 

 

Being a cellist before an ebassist before a double bassist ....I've always used finger tips with LH thumb gently on the back of the neck on all three.   Imo hooking your thumb round the neck and flatting your fingers is asking for trouble, even without a motorbike injury.

[Paolo85]

Meet the UEB - upright electric bass. Stuck on a tattoist arm rest, set up with unnecessarily high action to make the experience more vaguely realistic.

To be honest it is a failed experiment. The bass is very heavy (it's a cheap Fazley that competes with the heaviest Harley Bentons). I did nof feel like chopping the wings and having to redo the electronics.

The center of gravity would really be on the neck. Obviously I could not screw it to the neck.

Result? It wobbles a bit when I play.

To make it work, I should probably find a SERIOUSLY sturdy stand. However, I am tempted to just cut my losses. It was meant to be just a bit of fun. It's ok to play one note per bar, maybe try a slow two feel, see how far off my intonation is (a lot!), experimenting with using upper arm and shoulder muscles to play on the fingerboard, and see if it's painful or not. That should be all I need while I wait for the right time to buy an EUB to come 

EDIT: let me at least celebrate the acoustic sound of this, which with the superhigh action and plucked like an upright does sound more  "uprighty" than I expected!

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by Paolo85