I had no idea you could buy a bass guitar in 1936!

[spencer.b]

 

 

 

 

 

Excuse my ignorance and apologies if all this stuff has posted before but I always thought Leo fender pretty much invented the bass guitar as we know it ( I guess he kind of did) yesterday my mate sent me this ad for this Bud-electro bass 

https://www.retrofret.com/product.asp?ProductID=9917&name=BudElectro-Serenader-Solid-Body-Electric-Bass-Guitar-c-1940s1960s 

I then went on a deep dive and it led me to this , it's a fascinating read about Paul and Bud Tutmarc and there part in early electric guitar history 

https://jivetimerecords.com/northwest/paula-tutmarc/

Here's a 1936 audiovox that was on eBay!!!

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/on-ebay-the-worlds-first-electric-bass-guitar-forgotten-and-made-in-seattle/

 

 

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by spencer.b

[asingardenof]

That Audiovox sounds pretty good all things considering!

[itu]

 

[chris_b]

Yep, Leo Fender, and his team, invented the Precision but the bass guitar was Paul Tutmarc's concept.

 

There is quite a bit of information on Talkbass about Tutmarc and his basses.

[Baloney Balderdash]

Fender didn't event the electric bass guitar, there were several earlier examples of it than Fenders first non split single coil P Bass, he just popularized it.

[msb]

And Rickenbacker were making a lovely electric upright around that time too.

 

 

[xgsjx]

Did Leo Fender did what most great Americans do….  Take someone else’s idea & capitalise?

It was about 15 after the Audiovox that Fender made the P bass & maybe Tutmarc’s invention would have disappeared into obscurity. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

15 minutes ago, xgsjx said:

Did Leo Fender did what most great Americans do….  Take someone else’s idea & capitalise?

It was about 15 after the Audiovox that Fender made the P bass & maybe Tutmarc’s invention would have disappeared into obscurity. 

He most certainly did!

 

Leo Fender first an foremost was a businessman, if that had not been the case the first Fender bass would have been a greater instrument, albeit not as popular.

 

As is with most things in this world.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[asingardenof]

4 hours ago, xgsjx said:

Did Leo Fender did what most great Americans do….  Take someone else’s idea & capitalise?

It was about 15 after the Audiovox that Fender made the P bass & maybe Tutmarc’s invention would have disappeared into obscurity. 

There was a lot of "cross-pollination" of ideas around that time. The Birth of Loud by Ian S Port is a good read for the background.

[spencer.b]

Anyone know if there were any 34" scale basses pre fender?

[spencer.b]

1 hour ago, asingardenof said:

There was a lot of "cross-pollination" of ideas around that time. The Birth of Loud by Ian S Port is a good read for the background.

Nice one , just ordered it

[Hellzero]

As I mentioned it a lot of times, some 22 years ago, I wrote a very complete mémoire about the electric guitars and basses from their origin to 1965.

 

You can read it here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MH6uXdr4PAOTlt9h-vh1aVaeeYCTSfPj/edit?usp=drivesdk&ouid=108217044156770833021&rtpof=true&sd=true

 

Leo Fender wasn't a businessman, but a radio repairer at the time he started his activities, but when he got bigger he hired some real salesmen and businessmen in his team.

 

His strength was listening to the needs of musicians back in the day and he had the idea that an instrument should be fixed very quickly hence the removable neck allowing for the quickest repair ever as all you had to do is change the neck or the body and your instrument was ready to use immediately.

[Count Bassy]

On 21/09/2023 at 21:21, Hellzero said:

 allowing for the quickest repair ever as all you had to do is change the neck or the body and your instrument was ready to use immediately.

Trigger's broom?

[LowB_FTW]

And, thanks to this thread, I had no idea you could get a 5-String bass in 1971 (my birth year).

Every day's a learning day on Bass Chat.

 

Mark

[Baloney Balderdash]

On 21/09/2023 at 22:21, Hellzero said:

As I mentioned it a lot of times, some 22 years ago, I wrote a very complete mémoire about the electric guitars and basses from their origin to 1965.

 

You can read it here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MH6uXdr4PAOTlt9h-vh1aVaeeYCTSfPj/edit?usp=drivesdk&ouid=108217044156770833021&rtpof=true&sd=true

 

Leo Fender wasn't a businessman, but a radio repairer at the time he started his activities, but when he got bigger he hired some real salesmen and businessmen in his team.

 

His strength was listening to the needs of musicians back in the day and he had the idea that an instrument should be fixed very quickly hence the removable neck allowing for the quickest repair ever as all you had to do is change the neck or the body and your instrument was ready to use immediately.

When I say businessman I am talking about a mindset, not a profession.

 

Yes, Leo Fender very much had the mindset of businessman, which as far as I am concerned made him a businessman, as I am pretty sure the businessman is not an academic tittle.

 

You might as well has claimed that Bill Gates was not a businessman but a computer programmer.

 

While it is true that his profession is computer programmer, and Leo Fender's profession was a radio repairman, they is/were undeniably first and foremost businessmen.

 

One does not rule out the other in any possible way.

 

Just like someone haven a small goaty does not rule out them having a giant swirly mustache. 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Dad3353]

21 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

When I say businessman I am talking about a mindset, not a profession.

 

Yes, Leo Fender very much had the mindset of businessman, which as far as I am concerned made him a businessman, as I am pretty sure the businessman is not an academic tittle.

 

You might as well has claimed that Bill Gates was not a businessman but a computer programmer.

 

While it is true that his profession is computer programmer, and Leo Fender's profession was a radio repairman, they is/were undeniably first and foremost businessmen.

 

One does not rule out the other in any possible way.

 

Just like someone haven a small goaty does not rule out them having a giant swirly mustache. 

 

 

And this ^^^^ is important or something..? 

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

 

And this ^^^^ is important or something..? 

 

It is an important aspect for understanding how and why Fender and their instruments came to be, are what they are, why they are what they they are, and why they gained such popularity over other similar offerings on the market.

 

On 21/09/2023 at 09:12, Baloney Balderdash said:

He most certainly did! (Edit!: the question this was a reply to: "Did Leo Fender did what most great Americans do….  Take someone else’s idea & capitalise?")

 

Leo Fender first an foremost was a businessman, if that had not been the case the first Fender bass would have been a greater instrument, albeit not as popular.

 

As is with most things in this world.

 

 

 

Hellzero pointed out I was wrong in this observation, which I don't believe I am, hence my reply to that.

 

And this is relevant because it originally was a reply to someone asking a, I think relevant, question in this thread, related to the topic of it.

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[cantkeepjohnnydown]

9 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

 

It is an important aspect for understanding how and why Fender and their instruments came to be, are what they are, why they are what they they are, and why they gained such popularity over other similar offerings on the market.

 

 

Hellzero pointed out I was wrong in this observation, which I don't believe I am, hence my reply to that.

 

And this is relevant because it originally was a reply to someone asking a, I think relevant, question in this thread, related to the topic of it.

 

I think people reacted the way they have because you implied that not only was Leo Fender simply a shrewd copycat, but that his products were also essentially inferior, which is a rather puzzling statement to make considering he is so well known for having consulted and listened closely to working musicians of the time and developing his products, indeed innovating the entire field, to better accommodate their wants and needs. If you're going to take shots at one of the towering figures of popular music I think you should expect  having to elaborate a bit. 

[msb]

Leo was a repair man and made things so they could be easily adjusted and fixed. This is evident in his amp design , and right down to his bridges. A masterpiece of form and function. 
He did not do fancy binding , carved tops , or elaborate inlays , but I would not say his work was inferior. His slab body , bolt on neck aesthetic was functional. There was a practical reason behind every design decision.

I see genius in his simplicity.

[Hellzero]

And saying he was recycling others idea is not knowing what he's done for the musicians at this time as he was always listening to their input.

 

A true genius, indeed, always going ahead.

 

He even turned his cheapskate habits into clever designs, not flaws.

[LukeFRC]

25 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

And saying he was recycling others idea is not knowing what he's done for the musicians at this time as he was always listening to their input.

 

A true genius, indeed, always going ahead.

 

He even turned his cheapskate habits into clever designs, not flaws.

Taking the guitar from an artisan made craft product into a mass manufactured commodity was a massive change.

[kodiakblair]

Back to the Tutmarc.

 

My mate, Rick Wilson, did a full restoration on one when he worked at Gruhn's. Didn't say much about it but marks it down as a cool experience 🙂

[Phil Starr]

On 20/09/2023 at 12:51, spencer.b said:

 

 

 

 

 

Excuse my ignorance and apologies if all this stuff has posted before but I always thought Leo fender pretty much invented the bass guitar as we know it ( I guess he kind of did) yesterday my mate sent me this ad for this Bud-electro bass 

https://www.retrofret.com/product.asp?ProductID=9917&name=BudElectro-Serenader-Solid-Body-Electric-Bass-Guitar-c-1940s1960s 

I then went on a deep dive and it led me to this , it's a fascinating read about Paul and Bud Tutmarc and there part in early electric guitar history 

https://jivetimerecords.com/northwest/paula-tutmarc/

Here's a 1936 audiovox that was on eBay!!!

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/on-ebay-the-worlds-first-electric-bass-guitar-forgotten-and-made-in-seattle/

 

 

 

 

 

On 21/09/2023 at 12:50, asingardenof said:

There was a lot of "cross-pollination" of ideas around that time. The Birth of Loud by Ian S Port is a good read for the background.

Thanks for posting, this is a really interesting bit of history I knew nothing about.

 

People looking back at this period need to remember how the world was at the time. Certainly in the UK the majority of houses were just being electrified, owning a radio was a big purchase that most people couldn't afford. My dad made a lot of his income before WW2 recharging the batteries that radios then ran on, that dried up as more people were connected to the grid. Even in the 1960's and later in some places street lighting was by gas and in the 1990's I was still removing the gas lighting from houses I was restoring. Most of this gear was incredibly expensive and there grew an army of repairmen to maintain it. You couldn't use You Tube to look up repairs but there were a wealth of  monthly magazines like Wireless World and Practical Wireless full of practical hints, DIY designs and news of the latest developments. Ideas spread rapidly and people were experimenting all the time and if something didn't exist you would make it. Within this environment it isn't surprising that several people will come up with similar solutions. Equally trying to sell electric bass amps when the grid was at the stage fibre was ten years ago was probably an uphill task.

[Beer of the Bass]

Is there any suggestion that Fender was aware of Tutmarc's instruments when he developed the early Precision bass? They weren't widely adopted by musicians and it seems possible that Fender may have come up with his quite independently.

They're certainly an interesting historical footnote, but Fender's instruments were the ones that had the cultural impact.

[Baloney Balderdash]

https://reverb.com/news/did-leo-fender-invent-the-electric-bass