Anyone happy to share the do's and don'ts of how to set up for a live gig in a pub?

[Pirellithecat]

For my sins I have ended up as the "sound idiot" for my band! 

Of course everyone in the band is a sound expert, but someone has to provide the gear, set it up, get the volume right, get the monitors right and avoid feedback (FOH and Monitors) .... i.e. me.  Then there's the intra gig stuff of - "can't hear",  "not loud enough" , "feedback", "my Mics not working" etc etc.  Whilst the least capable musician (me) is trying to remember and play the set!  
So - anyone any tips and does anyone know of any internet based tutorials on doing the sound from the stage whilst playing?  (rather than a sound engineers view of the world where the sound can be done before the audience get there and the slider can be "ridden" during the set.

 

We have an analogue mixer, which rather ties me to the stage and I'm learning as I go along. 

At the moment I tend to set up all the gear. 

Then - 

1) FOH sound levels from the individual Mics plus drums

2) Check monitors and adjust individual levels across 3 monitors for 3 vocal mics, 2 guitars, bass, kick drum and snare. 

3) Sound check with full band on a trial track, using all instruments/vocals - to do this I just take my bass for a walk in the audience and dash back and change stuff as far as I can to balance the sound. 

The key issues are getting monitors right without feedback,  ensuring the FOH volume isn't too loud (in defiance of shouts of "turn the vocals" up!) and trying to control the onstage volumes. 

Only the Vocals and the drums go via the FOH at the moment the rest just go through the monitors - eventually I'd like to get more through the PA in order to reduce stage volume before I go deaf.   

I've started the IEM selling job - I use them intermittently, and the Drummer finally tried some last rehearsal, but it's a tall order! 

 

So any veterans out there with the best routine to get a great sound, keep everyone happy and not go deaf?                   

 

 

 

 

 

[warwickhunt]

I'm sure others more versed in the best way to convey the order and setting will contribute but I'll throw these observation in. 

 

• Have as much power 'in reserve' as you can, generally called head-room.  This doesn't have to mean that you haven't pushed the master fader all of the way up, it can be headroom in various stages of your equipment.  
• Do NOT allow band mates to back off on the volume they are sound checking at; guitarists dialling back the guitar volume, drummers not putting in the energy that they will when they start.  If they sound check at one setting then up it for the gig you have wasted your time setting anything!  
• Position your speakers appropriately (I'm sure this will be covered).

I'll likely think of more.    

[tauzero]

I'm doing vocal only PA.

 

1. Get vocalists to sing at full volume with monitors and FOH off so you can adjust gain to below clipping
2. Tell them it's entirely intentional that there's no sound in the speakers
3. Tell them to sing at full volume
4. Get a decent level for the monitors
5. Turn FOH up, nip out front and get the level set
6. Do a full band check with somebody out front to say who's too loud and who's too quiet (applies to backline too). Note: if this is the guitarist's girlfriend and she hero-worships him, make allowance for her completely ignoring the rest of the band.

It all seems so simple until you have to deal with other people.

[Pirellithecat]

Interesting comment re. Monitors first then FOH - I was doing this but suspect that doing the Monitors first means that the people "helping"  to let me set the levels are actually trying to get the system loud enough for everyone without realising that most of the sound they need will come, indirectly, from FOH.    There was clue from the guitarist who kept saying that the PA wasn't loud enough  and me having to let him know that I hadn't actually turned on the FOH speakers at that point.   My thinking now is to set the FOH volume and then ask the monitor users to let me know IF they need anything else. 

But, I really haven't a clue if this is the correct approach, so keep coming with suggestions.

I guess one of the issues is feeling under pressure to get it all done with minimal disruption to the already present "audience" - hence rushing and fouling it all up!! 

 
  

[warwickhunt]

One other consideration which you may well have already done if you've been gigging is to start your initial set up with all of the EQs 'flat'.  I've seen people step up to an unfamiliar desk/PA and start setting EQs based on what 'their' system generally has set... before anyone blats a drum, plays a note or sings a line!  Once you have a basic set up you generally will just tweak for venues, so long as everyone uses the same gear with the same settings etc (bass drum mic always in the same place).  

[The Saint]

I would always get monitor levels set first, then FOH.  You can always fine tune it once you have everything up and running. It's amazing how different things sound when FOH kicks in and the band will often ask for less in the monitors.

But that was in my days of only doing sound, not playing at the same time. I do both now but we're generally a three piece with fairly simple gear and in smaller venues.

Trying to play and be the sound guy at the same time is a very uneviable task in a full band situation.

The stress levels just destroy the whole experience of enjoying the evening.

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks everyone.    Good to get the feedback (no pun intended) on monitor vs FOH set up sequence - I'll make sure I'm more dictatorial about that from now on.

In terms of EQ - I tend to have an element of "cut" at the outset and then go from there - to be honest though I don't really touch it as I don't get long enough out front to detect whether its optimal.

And yes - the stress of getting the sound right during the gig does reduce the pleasure.    But - I don't think the rest of the band would be as picky as me so I'd probably still be a bit stressy about the sound even if someone else did it! 

[warwickhunt]

Just a small thing but we do a sound check with guitarist/vocalist listening out front with radio gear listening to the overall band mix (sans vocals), then I go out front (radio gear) to set the balance of vocals + band with him singing.  We also always check the same song so we know it has a mix of guitar sounds et al.

Edited September 20, 2023 by warwickhunt

[Al Krow]

Agreed that having wireless kit does make for an easier process as you can hear the full band including yourself up front. 

 

We will get the sound as good as we can during sound check, but either the singer or myself, who both have wireless, will wander out front and have a listen during the set to double check. There's often more energy and volume to the band during the live set compared to the sound check, which can affect the balance. 

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

One other consideration which you may well have already done if you've been gigging is to start your initial set up with all of the EQs 'flat'.  I've seen people step up to an unfamiliar desk/PA and start setting EQs based on what 'their' system generally has set... before anyone blats a drum, plays a note or sings a line!  Once you have a basic set up you generally will just tweak for venues, so long as everyone uses the same gear with the same settings etc (bass drum mic always in the same place).  

 

That makes sense with unfamiliar kit. 

 

On the other hand if you're using the same desk and PA, you'll have a pretty good idea of what settings work for your band and can use that as the starting point, so you're not having to reinvent the wheel each time, and can then tweak it for the venue. 

[Downunderwonder]

Guitards will frequently sandbag sound check by keeping their volume in check so that they can crank it later.

 

They also don't level out their fx suite for acceptable levels of boost.

 

They use amps that are too big.

 

Then people conplain they can't hear the vocals and you get feedback trying to wring every last dB out of the PA.

 

Tell me you are not up against it from the get go.

 

Singers must use mic distance if you are to get the most out of the PA you have. Enthusiastic amateurs will make you give them too much gain so they have an easy time singing at regular volume and then when they let rip they clip it to get their compression instead of pulling back from the mic. They have to be right on the mic at regular volume.

 

Everyone turn the hell down. Drummer get some lighter sticks. Deafening volume is what is killing live music in pubs.

[Pirellithecat]

Ha ha,  Lighter sticks ... in your dreams! 

And guitards .... well, what can I say. 

 

Good point re. getting out into the audience mid set .... I am a bit shy though and it would mean walking/playing/avoiding the exuberant revellers all at the same time.  But it's worth a try. 

In terms of mixer settings I'm always surprised how much we have to change eg Monitor levels at each venue.    Other than that, with the exception of the amount of FX, as most levels are already above Unity, I have little to play with save the actual volume controls on the Speakers.

 

In terms of gain - if each step in the journey from Mic to PA speaker adds more gain, (mic- initial gain - channel fader - main fader - Speaker) is it best to have the Speakers set at full allowing gain to be reduced in the preceding chain?

[Downunderwonder]

2 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

terms of gain

Ideally each stage should be able to drive the next to its maximum with what came down the pipe, with no red lights. That gets you maximum clean headroom.

 

If in practice the total is too much for the speakers to handle then the safest approach is to wind down the final stage that determines speaker volume. Then if it clips the input of the final stage you can hear it before doing any major damage.

 

As regards mics you are on Struggle St obviously looking for maximum gain before feedback. The quieter it is on stage the more you can get away with.

 

Are your singers using their mics properly? 1st order of business.

 

Can you go on a field trip as a band to hear some well adjusted old rockers rocking out with fidelity and modest stage amps?

 

Mic'ng small amps into PA can do wonders for reducing overall volume. You can point the guitar amp up at guitar hero's earhole and hey presto volume is decimated.

 

Most drummers can adjust nicely to no longer having skull rattling guitar amps on stage. Drummer either gets with the program or gets replaced. Not a problem as you'll be getting more and better gigs.

[skidder652003]

yep monitor mix first before FOH.

Obvious one really but are the FOH speakers in front of the band? Feedback s something we never get these days so Im surprised that is still a thing.

We mic up everything, guitar, bass, kick, snare, toms and overheads, the works. That we you have full control of what comes out in the monitors and FOH.

The guitarist should have a sweet spot for his amp, one that doesn't mean volume on 11, then adjust his volume via monitor and FOH.

When he inevitably asks for more volume in the monitor just smile and nod and pretend to raise his level, his brain will trick him into thinking its louder.

 

[Pirellithecat]

In terms of gain we tend to keep everything in the "intermittent" green LED area - maybe I should tweak that up a bit? 

The Mic users are mostly OK in terms of technique, save for the occasional holding of the mic bulb!!  The drummer's mic has an on off switch so it's only on in tracks where he sings. 

I wonder whether the use of Ear defenders contributes to the loud stage and, as a result, monitor feedback?. The guitar cab is on the floor (for some guitar voodoo reason) and the guitar player uses ear plugs so he's not really aware of the true volume on stage.  To him, the vocals seem quiet in the monitors so wants them turned up (even asks for the bass to be louder on occasion!).  The drummer is also using ear plugs and from his standpoint he's not too loud (given that everyone has now turned up). He has tried IEM's twice, but doesn't like the "detached sound" - although pretty much everything is in his monitor feed.   I do ask whether the sound is any clearer via the ear plugs, but patience is needed.   He also sings and his mic/monitor is a major cause of onstage noise and feedback. I'm experimenting with IEM's rather than a monitor, but so far I'm not getting on that well with them although, at least, the left one acts as a drum suppressor!   

Currently, the Guitar player and vocalist share a monitor placed centre stage.  The drummer has a dedicated monitor.    I have a monitor, but rarely use it so I wonder whether it might be better to use it for  a dedicated monitor for the Guitarist(who sings).   It's a bit more hassle on a small stage, and seems at odds with trying to reduce stage noise, but maybe 2 quieter monitors might work better than one loud one?  Or is this a daft idea? 

 

From comments so far,

Tweak monitors down after FOH up and running (if possible)

Adjust gain at each stage a bit - probably a bit more at the start of the chain and a bit less at the end.

Persevere with IEM's 

? until IEM's split two vocal monitors? 
Get out front mid set

Go check out other bands as a band. 

And .........

Thanks everyone.
 

[Pirellithecat]

And yes, of course, agree to all requests from band , but ignore as necessary!!! 😁

[skidder652003]

our singer goes out front while we play our sondcheck song ( currently good lovin gone bad) without vocals.

She tells us what needs adjusting without prejudice (she has great ears).

So once thats sorted its easy for her to come back on stage and just add her vocals to the rest of the song, basically all she needs to ensure is that she is loud enough out front and thats it.

Could your vocalist/front man not do the same?

Edited September 21, 2023 by skidder652003

[BigRedX]

In recent years the band with the best sound it terms of being able to hear everything was the rockabilly band I supported who would start with the vocals and then build the rest of the band sound around that, drums being done last and only put through the PA if they weren't sufficiently loud enough acoustically. The results were astounding, and they seemed to take a lot less time to set up and sound check, maybe because they didn't spend ages sorting out a drum sound that ultimately might not be needed or would have to be modified once the whole band were playing. This method does require all the instruments especially the drums to be perfectly set up/tuned/damped and with instrument amplifier EQs already sorted for the band mix rather than sounding good at home, but if you can persuade your band members to do this you'll shave at least 1/3 of sound checking time and more if you are using your own PA.

[Chienmortbb]

1 hour ago, Pirellithecat said:

And yes, of course, agree to all requests from band , but ignore as necessary!!! 😁

I have told this story before, but I was once asked by a clown that thought he could mix to turn down my bass amp as it was too loud and causing boom. It kept happening till eventually had the master volume at 0. Of course, he did not believe me until I told him to mute the PA and played my bass, of course nothing came out.

[Jakester]

3 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

 

The guitar cab is on the floor (for some guitar voodoo reason) and the guitar player uses ear plugs so he's not really aware of the true volume on stage.  To him, the vocals seem quiet in the monitors so wants them turned up (even asks for the bass to be louder on occasion!).  The drummer is also using ear plugs and from his standpoint he's not too loud (given that everyone has now turned up). He has tried IEM's twice, but doesn't like the "detached sound" - although pretty much everything is in his monitor feed.   I do ask whether the sound is any clearer via the ear plugs, but patience is needed.   He also sings and his mic/monitor is a major cause of onstage noise and feedback. I'm experimenting with IEM's rather than a monitor, but so far I'm not getting on that well with them although, at least, the left one acts as a drum suppressor!   

 

I think these are the main issues you need to look at.

 

What ear plugs are they using? Something even slightly better than foam bullets can make a world of difference. I used to use Alpine Musician Pro earplugs, and they were much clearer across the board than cheapo foamies or even the xmas tree style ones. Perhaps the guitarist should try some specific attenuation plugs - with those Alpines you can change the attenuation level.

 

The drummer mic/monitor thing is probably a positioning thing - is it a floor wedge? if so, try getting it up closer to his ears, ideally pointed backwards to his head - perhaps a speaker stand might help?

 

For the IEM isolation, try sticking an omni mic at the front of the stage, or a stereo pair at either side of the stage behind the speakers pointing at the band. As long as that's just routed to those with IEMs and not FOH, then it can really help to combat that sense of isolation. I've used a cheap Behringer measuring mic before and it works fine.

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks Jakester.  
The choice of Ear plugs is problematic - the guitar player is pretty set with what he uses - not sure what they are but not cheapy foam bungs.   Drummer really just wants "cheap" so varies between foam and etymotic "knock offs".   IEM's would sort this problem.

 

Like the idea of a speaker stand for the drum monitor - I'll push this, as he could use my monitor which can be stand mounted if I can't get him to use IEM's.  

Like the idea of picking up the ambient sound and have a spare unidirectional mic (possibly two) I'll have a play!  

 

It's really odd that the other members of the band don't see any link between what they do and the ability to get decent sound quality, on and off stage.   It's made worse when having seen "competitor" bands😅 they come back and say  "T'Other Band and Vibes sounded really good" - how do they do that?"  So I suggest  ..... "could it be the  quiet stage, having everything in the mixer, IEM's or sensible use of monitors, not too loud" to get the inevitable response , "yeah but ............ (insert appropriate excuse)". 

 

Anyway slowly slowly catchee monkey.

 

[Jakester]

1 hour ago, Pirellithecat said:

The choice of Ear plugs is problematic - the guitar player is pretty set with what he uses - not sure what they are but not cheapy foam bungs.   Drummer really just wants "cheap" so varies between foam and etymotic "knock offs".

 

These are what I used to use: 

 

https://www.alpinehearingprotection.co.uk/products/musicsafe-pro

 

They're not wildly more than the Etymotic knock-offs you mention, but IME have a flatter frequency attenuation across the spectrum and have the changeable filters.

 

I've got the ACM custom moulds now - the attenuation is the same, they're just comfier for a longer period of time. 

 

1 hour ago, Pirellithecat said:

Like the idea of a speaker stand for the drum monitor - I'll push this, as he could use my monitor which can be stand mounted if I can't get him to use IEM's. 

 

Yep - I tended to find that in order to hear a floor wedge it had to be cranked to overcome the drum volumes, whereas if it's stand mounted it can be lower. Even those diddly little Mackie/Behringer jobs work on a mic stand loud enough to be heard. 

 

1 hour ago, Pirellithecat said:

It's really odd that the other members of the band don't see any link between what they do and the ability to get decent sound quality, on and off stage.   It's made worse when having seen "competitor" bands😅 they come back and say  "T'Other Band and Vibes sounded really good" - how do they do that?"  So I suggest  ..... "could it be the  quiet stage, having everything in the mixer, IEM's or sensible use of monitors, not too loud" to get the inevitable response , "yeah but ............ (insert appropriate excuse)". 

 

 

Frustrating, innit? I'd suggest a good way might be to get them to trial some universal IEMs at a technical rehearsals - the KZs get good reviews here and use them at rehearsal to get used to them. 

[Phil Starr]

I've read through the thread and TBH you aren't doing much wrong.  It's an impossible task to get a good mix when you can't sit out in the audience area and there comes a point where there are so many distractions your playing can suffer because you are using too much brain space in running the PA. In addition you'll often have to set up in unfamiliar venues which often have poor acoustics and you won't be able to do a proper sound check. Every single one of the band will want you to turn them up and then turn everyone else down and if they will let you soundcheck they will start fiddling with their settings after you've finished. Alternatively someone has tripped on a lead and disconnected a monitor/mic/instrument and only tells you at the end of the gig that they couldn't hear their own .......

 

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Have a routine and do things in the same order each time working systematically. It should get easier over time, if your singer needs a bit of bass cut and a midrange tweak to sound good they will need the same at each gig so long as they stick to the same mic. The same should be true of each instrument. What you want is the same all purpose mix going to the PA each time. That means the adjustments you make should only be those to match the PA to the different room acoustics. I pretty much don't eq individual channels at the gig and I try not to touch levels either. Your band members should be encouraged to use the same settings at every gig so if you have the levels right and they haven't changed anything the only thing that will have changed is the room acoustics. Having a digital mixer makes this so easy as you can save the settings for dozens of bands on the same mixer but with an analogue desk you can still save settings in a notebook or by putting marks or bits of masking tape on the desk. I find nowadays that by recalling the settings I get a decent mix from the off, usually good enough that we can do a gig without a soundcheck if we really have to. Inevitably someone will have turned up or down since the last gig but that is usually easy to spot. 

 

So if you have the same people, using the same gear going through the same channel settings each gig the only thing you should need to adjust should be the outputs to match your speakers to the venue. This guy explains it well How to EQ a 

 PA System- some tricks 

 

Of course it is never that easy and you can always do more but don't let it distract you from enjoying playing yourself.

 

The final trick is to have a technical rehearsal once in a while to give you time to set up more thoroughly without an audience present. It helps with the human problems too, if anyone complains i say I want a technical rehearsal and suddenly they aren't that bothered

[Downunderwonder]

13 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

The same should be true of each instrument. What you want is the same all purpose mix going to the PA each time. That means the adjustments you make should only be those to match the PA to the different room

How come this doesn't come with the instructions? It should hang over the door at soundman school.

 

It should be a bit easier for OP as it's all stage amps.

 

A radical suggestion.

 

Mic'ng guitar amps only to put them in stage monitors in a pub is loony tunes stuff so have an open mind:

 

Swap the guitar players' amps across so they each monitor themselves 'under' the other guy. No guitars in monitors.,stop whining! Have them adjust each other. Stop whining! What you get is a nice blend of complimentary guitar sounds at half the volume they were before. Drummer won't need to hit half as hard. Monitor volume much reduced, happy days.

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks for spending the time helping out everyone - appreciate it.

Some good suggestions which I'll try to get adopted.

 

The FOH sound is probably the least of my worries as I already pre-set all the sensitivities of the mics (vocals and drums) before the gig,  so I don't usually have to fiddle with those. Ditto the EQ's which are mostly pre-set with venue tweaks as necessary.   It's the onstage stuff which is the difficult bit. 

And whilst it might be a case of the excellent being the enemy of the good, unless I can hear what's going on, I find it difficult to enjoy playing.   
The real weakness is that when someone pink torpedos-up the rest of the band can't really work out what's going and it's a bit of a vicious cycle.  And it get's too loud = feedback.

 

But some good take-aways from this thread which I'll try to implement. 

And yes, putting guitars etc through monitors might sound a bit daft, but they only go to me and the drummer, not the guitar players.  The only way to make progress in the IEM crusade is to get all the instruments into the mix.   If I can make it work, then the drummer may well follow  and then ... who knows!