Anyone happy to share the do's and don'ts of how to set up for a live gig in a pub?

[jimmyb625]

3 hours ago, TimR said:

 

I've not used this particular mixer but the manual refers to 2 modes.

 

FOH mode in which case the 6 outputs are G1 - G4, L and R.

And

Mix mode in which case the 6 outputs are Aux 1 - 6.

 

That implies to me you can have L&R for front of house and 1-4 for monitors.

 

Or 1-6 for monitors. In which case you're using it as a monitor mixer and need another mixer to deal with FOH. 

 

Anyway, it's Allen and Heath, that's a high end mixer as already pointed out nearly £1600 new and with 14+ channels a tad overkill for a pub band. 

 

Most pub bands are going to be using a Soundcraft Spirit at most expensive or behringer/Yammah equivalent. 

 

 

Not quite.

 

As Dane says, switching between monitor and FOH mode changes the outputs that the aux's are presented on. There's a couple of reasons for this. First of all, it puts all of the send levels onto faders, which makes it slightly easier for a monitor engineer, as opposed to moving the rotary pots. It also gives you the option to use inserts on the aux sends, which isn't available on the trs outputs. You also get +4dBu on the aux outputs (xlr) in monitor mode, as opposed to -2dBu from the trs outputs you get when you use it in FOH mode.

 

If you are using it FOH mode (which I think is the one most of us would use) you still have all 6 aux's available, but on the trs outputs which are controlled by the pots. Your normal mix to FOH would be via the main L&R (xlr) outputs. You could also "cheat" a bit and use groups 1-4 to get another 4 outputs, but you don't get as much flexibility, as you're limited to post fade sends from the channel and you can only assign individual channels to paired groups (i.e. channel 1 sends to group 1&2 3&4 etc.).

 

As I said, it's a really good desk. I used one for around 10 years at the theatre, before we made the move to an xr18.

[Pirellithecat]

Bigger "performance area" than usual on Saturday.

Changes made
One monitor (rather than up to 3)

IEM's for me and drummer

Better Mic/monitor positioning

Mic sensitivities done pre gig
Monitoring set up after FOH volume.

New guitar cab - portrait angled top vs on floor to ankle. 

IEM's for me and drummer

Increased FOH speaker vol/reduced mixer gain.

Sneaked a bit of guitars into front of house instead of cranking volume ....... 

Results
No feedback! 

Still very loud out front

Loud but not painful on stage

IEM's not very successful in consistently getting right mix (any mix for me).   Needs work if we are going to continue to uses them for drummer.  Even without any actual mix (tech issues?) IEM's good in term of noise reduction but being able to hear.  For drummer we will need to add overhead Mic(s) to capture all drums in IEM mix.

Drummer could sing without feed back - great benefit. 

 

So, either a benign venue or the changes are having an effect!   We went down a storm so just for fun, here's the band in action!!

 

[vsmith1]

1 hour ago, Pirellithecat said:

Bigger "performance area" than usual on Saturday.

Changes made
One monitor (rather than up to 3)

IEM's for me and drummer

Better Mic/monitor positioning

Mic sensitivities done pre gig
Monitoring set up after FOH volume.

New guitar cab - portrait angled top vs on floor to ankle. 

IEM's for me and drummer

Increased FOH speaker vol/reduced mixer gain.

Sneaked a bit of guitars into front of house instead of cranking volume ....... 

Results
No feedback! 

Still very loud out front

Loud but not painful on stage

IEM's not very successful in consistently getting right mix (any mix for me).   Needs work if we are going to continue to uses them for drummer.  Even without any actual mix (tech issues?) IEM's good in term of noise reduction but being able to hear.  For drummer we will need to add overhead Mic(s) to capture all drums in IEM mix.

Drummer could sing without feed back - great benefit. 

 

So, either a benign venue or the changes are having an effect!   We went down a storm so just for fun, here's the band in action!!

 

You are looking good. Glad to see that you have already made some positive changes. 

[Pirellithecat]

2 steps forward, one back! 

Drummer doesn't like IEM's so wants his monitor back! 

Very loud gig last night and drum monitor leads to feedback.  Got it controlled but it's touch and go. 

I can borrow a Shure SM58 Beta for the next Saturday's gig, but are there any thoughts on mics for drummers (which are not too prone to feedback)? 

Going to try mounting his monitor on a stand to get it pointing directly at his ears.

Anything else I can do?  Except REDUCE THE VOLUME!!

 

[Downunderwonder]

Options.

 

Reduce gain on his mic.

 

Reduce his monitor volume.

 

Reduce the amount the mic picks up of the monitor relative to drummer vocal. Is he getting right up on it?

 

Unfortunately putting the monitor up higher to allow it to be turned down also puts it closer to the offending mic. Directions, reflections, and the pickup pattern of the mic are what you have to figure out. I think I would be sacrificing some stage area to put the monitor directly behind the drummer so he is a big meat baffle for the mic.

On 10/10/2023 at 01:25, vsmith1 said:

 

Increased FOH speaker vol/reduced mixer gain.

 

On 10/10/2023 at 01:25, vsmith1 said:

Sneaked a bit of guitars into front of house instead of cranking volume ....... 

Juggling gain mixer to FOH like that doesn't help feedback per se. The juggling needs to happen at the mic inputs. Anything you can do to get more of what you want to go into the mic with less extraneous racket allows higher gain on that mic.

 

Dialing back the whole band right back on stage and putting it all through the PA would. Guitars on IEM for the win?

 

Since you are good with IEM the big thing you can do is trade bass cab for FOH sub and put very highpassed bass in monitor for drummer.

 

I dunno, they claim to want to sound good. Somethings got to give for that to happen.

[Downunderwonder]

If I am reading it right the drummer has rejected the IEM after the one trial gig last Saturday? That's hardly a fair effort to get them dialed in.

 

You will need the guitarists to level out their fx and have consistent playing dynamics soft to loud that everyone else can play to without any knob twiddling. Then you will be in your happy place.

[Pirellithecat]

Haha,  it's a labour of love!  Or maybe a fools errand!    But it'll be a slow process. The sound is a lot better on stage and the feedback issue is pretty well sorted except for the drummer.  He has a less than ideal mic, so if we can improve that and work on appropriate monitor positioning, I'm hopeful we'll get on top of the situation.  Just need to get the overall volume on and off stage under control after that.  Optimistic that a little PA support for backline will allow a reduction of backline volume so it's a work in progress.    🤞🤞

[Kickass]

Might your drummer prefer headphones? They can be over ear or allow more ambient sound and can be moved part way off the ear to control how much "room" gets through. I have seen drummers in the studio become much more controlled with one ear on technique.

[Pirellithecat]

Good idea,  I think over time he may come round to this.   At the moment I think he's uncomfortable with the "look" but we'll try some decent headphones at rehearsal over the coming weeks to see if the sound "benefits" motivate change.  Softly softly catchee Monkey and all that ............ Actually,  may be in search of the impossible.   I don't think we sound bad, many people complement us on our sets.  Few mention "it's too loud",  but whilst the Excellent may be the Enemy of the Good, I feel that if we could all hear what was going on better, we would play better, the songs would end up tighter, and the individual instruments would contribute better to "The Song" rather than just the overall impact of the sound.   

[tauzero]

On 15/10/2023 at 14:48, Pirellithecat said:

Anything else I can do?  Except REDUCE THE VOLUME!!

 

[Huge Hands]

I would probably also look at the mix the drummer is asking for in his monitor.  Is it purely his vocal, or is he asking for loads of kick drum and a mix of all the instruments at full volume?

 

The more he asks of that monitor, the more it (and al the other sound sources on stage) will likely become a mushy muddled mess that will probably just resonate his floor tom and make it all unclear.

 

What I'm trying to say is, perhaps you might want to try starting again with his monitor.  Maybe don't include some of the stuff that is already loud on stage so that it can concentrate on producing the sounds he actually needs to hear to keep time/cues.

 

This may have also been the issue with his dislike of the in-ears.   As others have said - it probably needed a bit more time to balance levels and get used to them. 

 

As a side anecdote, I remember always being amazed when working sound on gigs with the classic singers Edwin Starr and Jimmy James - both would insist on no vocal monitors at all, and would sometimes get funny if you even left some on stage to save putting them away!  They were alway spot on vocally too.  

[Phil Starr]

Just a thought, I used to have an old Behringer B205D personal monitor that the drummer borrowed and mounted on a mic stand at ear level. If you can’t get him to go in ears then getting the monitor up at ear level means it doesn’t have to be so loud and moves it away from the mics. It’s a compromise but it worked for him, he bought the monitor off me

Edited October 17, 2023 by Phil Starr

[pete.young]

You could try a feedback destroyer on the drummer's monitor.

[Pirellithecat]

Had a quick look at feedback destroyers

..........  what would you suggest as they are fairly costly

 In terms of investment I wonder whether a better Mic. might be the first step.   But I guess the drummer should cough up for this and that might mean it doesn't happen.

[pete.young]

They seem to have gone up a bit since the last time I looked. I was thinking you'd get a used Peavey Feedback Ferret for £50.

 

You could also try chasing the feedback frequency (ies) with a multi-band graphic, or put a noise-gate on the drummer's mike.

[TimR]

I have a beringer feedback destroyer. 

 

I think they're only really any good for killing specific frequencies. It'll struggle with general rumble and back feed of instruments, they're not designed for that. 

 

A drummer singing who isn't empathetic with his playing is your issue. 

 

If the band can't control their on stage volume, you're in the wrong band. 

[TimR]

On 15/10/2023 at 22:30, Pirellithecat said:

He has a less than ideal mic,

 

Does he have a headset mic? Get the mic right up to his lips and won't pick up any drums then. And it doesn't have such a bad a look as closed headphones. 

[Stub Mandrel]

The obvious, if unpopular, conclusion is that you should play quieter.

[Pirellithecat]

Good point.  

Sadly though, having looked everywhere, I can't find the volume control on the drum kit.   I'll look again this evening.

[Pirellithecat]

15 hours ago, pete.young said:

They seem to have gone up a bit since the last time I looked. I was thinking you'd get a used Peavey Feedback Ferret for £50.

 

You could also try chasing the feedback frequency (ies) with a multi-band graphic, or put a noise-gate on the drummer's mike.

 Given the limited space available at gigs - has anyone any experience of the Behringer FBQ100 SHARK Microphone Feedback Destroyer?    Small footprint and could sit next to the mixer - could use for just the drummer's vocal mic. 

 

Borrowed a Shure SM58Beta for this evening - upside is it should pick up less from the monitor (if I can get it positioned well)  bad news - no mic switch, so drummer can't turn it off when not singing!!!    We'll see. 

 

I like the headset idea - but it'll take a bit of persuasion ....... 

 

Thanks for all the continuing good ideas ........ 

[Pirellithecat]

Success!!!

Changed monitor arrangement

Deployed SM58 Beta.   

Drummer sang 

No Feedback

Drummer could hear most of what he needed.

👍😁

A little finessing to do and still need to work on volume, but looking hopeful.

🤞🤞

So big a "thank you"  to everyone for all your engagement on the struggle.

 

[vsmith1]

On 21/10/2023 at 12:39, Pirellithecat said:

 Given the limited space available at gigs - has anyone any experience of the Behringer FBQ100 SHARK Microphone Feedback Destroyer?    Small footprint and could sit next to the mixer - could use for just the drummer's vocal mic. 

 

Borrowed a Shure SM58Beta for this evening - upside is it should pick up less from the monitor (if I can get it positioned well)  bad news - no mic switch, so drummer can't turn it off when not singing!!!    We'll see. 

 

I like the headset idea - but it'll take a bit of persuasion ....... 

 

Thanks for all the continuing good ideas ........ 

If you want to try a Behringer Feedback Destroyer - I have one that I could sell.

[Pirellithecat]

Thanks Vince.      I'm going to see whether the  Mic upgrade works over the next week or so and then may well be in touch.     Is it the small footprint (Shark)?  as we don't use a rack we're a bit short of space foe a full sized unit?? 

[vsmith1]

It is the rack-sized unit FBQ2496 or FBQ1000 - it's been a long time since they've seen daylight!

 

[Phil Starr]

15 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Thanks Vince.      I'm going to see whether the  Mic upgrade works over the next week or so and then may well be in touch.     Is it the small footprint (Shark)?  as we don't use a rack we're a bit short of space foe a full sized unit?? 

I've got a Shark I don't use, it was bought for the same purpose you propose to use it for. It kind of works but once it's knocked out all (12) of the problem frequencies it can cope with it does affect the sound noticeably. I needed it for the lead vocals so that wasn't acceptable and it isn''t something you can programme manually and play bass at the same time. For me the solution was to improve the set up and some of the PA kit plus manual tweaking of eq. It does what it says on the tin and can give you fairly extensive DSP options but it certainly isn't a magic bullet. It was simpler to rethink and move monitors around than to fully explore it's capabilities for me. I mainly used it on the monitor feed.

 

Funnily enough i was thinking of digging it out seeing if it might be useful on my bass signal. It offers some quite nice HPF and compression options for bass.