Pirellithecat Posted October 24, 2023 Author Share Posted October 24, 2023 I'm going to continue to try, methodically, to eliminate the main causes of feedback before resorting to extra tech - the Shark might end up being needed, and as you say, it's the monitor feeds which cause the issues. Working on the Mic positioning in relation to the monitor(s) is paying dividends, but it's going to be a slow process and reducing stage volume is starting to get traction, but there's a long way to go. A lot of the issues are "perceptual" rather than real, which makes it very difficult. It is, as they say almost impossible to change emotionally held beliefs with technically based argument, so there's lots of subtle work to be done. Major wins so far are; Monitor volume/positioning. Mic "choice" and positioning. Paying more attention to gain structure (particularly Mic pre-amp gain) and EQ. Our rather excellent Guitard has bought a new 2x12cab with an angled top baffle making it easier to hear guitar on stage. Getting "everything" into the mixer which gives the option of reducing stage volume whilst having the chance to subtley add feeds into the FOH for a better audience mix. Interestingly, we set up a vocal mix and a dedicated monitor mix for the drummer at the last gig. All worked well except for unexpected feedback from the vocal monitor initially, Couldn't work it out, so turned off various feeds and played with volumes - all a bit tricky mid songs!! Forgot to reinstate the guitar mix into the drummers monitor. He didn't notice for the whole of the rest of the gig!! (perceptual vs real?). And the cause ..... Guitarist and vocalist had inadvertently "swapped" Mics. SM 58 vs SM58Beta. So, gain structure now wrong, Monitor positioning wrong, volume wrong ......... looked up halfway through gig and saw the tell tale blue line on the wrong mic. DOH!! ....... Onward and Upward ... 🙄🤣 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 The Feedback destroyer isn't very deep. https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Behringer-FBQ2496-Feedback-Destroyer-Pro/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vsmith1 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 Great to see you making (rapid in my experience) progress. As people change their instruments (DIs, mics, etc.) then it changes gain structure usually. There ought to be a change control process (that's my IT career speaking). Getting everything into the FoH helps when playing larger gigs, or gigs where the FoH is provided (eg in our area Ruskins, Kendal). On stage set up largely stays the same. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 8 minutes ago, Pirellithecat said: And the cause ..... Guitarist and vocalist had inadvertently "swapped" Mics. SM 58 vs SM58Beta. So, gain structure now wrong, Monitor positioning wrong, volume wrong ......... looked up halfway through gig and saw the tell tale blue line on the wrong mic. DOH!! ....... You couldn't make it up could you? you'll have to start collecting them at the end of the lesson (ahem gig) I was a secondary school teacher. When I used to teach bottom sets I would count in the pencils and pens at the end of each lesson and give them out at the beginning of the next. I even bought in a load of cheap pens and 'sold' them to the kids so they wouldn't get into trouble in the next lesson with teachers who hadn't worked it out and started their lessons with stress and chaos. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirellithecat Posted October 24, 2023 Author Share Posted October 24, 2023 Please Sir, can I borrow a pencil .................... Now, what do I need to do to get out of remedial class .....🤔 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 7 hours ago, Pirellithecat said: Please Sir, can I borrow a pencil .................... Now, what do I need to do to get out of remedial class .....🤔 Maybe a different coloured tape around each mic? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 16 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said: Maybe a different coloured tape around each mic? The Beta has a blue band. I think a lot of brands adopt that coding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunderwonder Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 10 hours ago, Pirellithecat said: it's the monitor feeds which cause the issues. Need to be careful with terminology here. What you are mixing to his monitor may or may not be the cause of your remaining f.b. Everyone points at the bass player when there is something howling down low. 99/100 it's not the bass guitar. The first thing is to be absolutely sure which circuit is doing the feedback. Make sure it isn't the drummer's monitor that is getting back into a drum mic with vocal frequency. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 20 hours ago, Pirellithecat said: Please Sir, can I borrow a pencil .................... Now, what do I need to do to get out of remedial class .....🤔 You're from Cumbria make your own pencils or go to the museum 🤣🤣 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vsmith1 Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 14 hours ago, Chienmortbb said: Maybe a different coloured tape around each mic? I produce a Hook Up sheet - a diagram (with colour coding) identifying whose cable goes in where. Still people get it wrong - ie plugging their AUX XLR cable into the wrong AUX output (ie channel AUX 2 rather than AUX 3) then wondering why their monitor mix is all wrong. I've previously used coloured stickers (small 4mm) on the desk next to the sockets to help. Though coloured stuff is hard to see in most gig situations due to the lack of lighting or "mood" lighting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 It's like all things, unless someone really understands why they're doing something, they don't know what they're doing. It's quicker and easier to do it yourself and have one other band member fully trained up. It's not rocket science but I know at least 3 singers who can't put up and take down a music stand. Not because they're stupid, just because they can't be bothered to learn and it's quicker for someone else to do it for them. I once had the guitarist's mate do the desk for us. I set everything up before he arrived. All the faders have the instruments labelled across the bottom on tape and that is the same always, (if we don't have a kick drum mic plugged in, the chanel stays labelled but empty etc), EQs all set as normal for the band, all AUX outs noted for monitors and effects. Next thing I know he's unplugged everything, ripped the labels off and started from scratch... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, TimR said: guitarist's mate Says it all! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunderwonder Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 10 hours ago, TimR said: Next thing I know he's unplugged everything, ripped the labels off and started from scratch... You must have been doing it all wrong for him to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 24 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said: You must have been doing it all wrong for him to do that. It was weird. AFAIK it's pretty much industry standard to have: Drums (kick,snare,hi hat, Tom's, cymbals) Bass Guitar/s Keys Brass Vocals Anyone can then quickly jump on a desk and see what's going on. I prefer to organise the vocals in the same left to right order they appear on stage. So lead vocal may not be the first one you come to if bass and guitar are also singing backing vocals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downunderwonder Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, TimR said: It was weird. AFAIK it's pretty much industry standard to have: Drums (kick,snare,hi hat, Tom's, cymbals) Bass Guitar/s Keys Brass Vocals Anyone can then quickly jump on a desk and see what's going on. I prefer to organise the vocals in the same left to right order they appear on stage. So lead vocal may not be the first one you come to if bass and guitar are also singing backing vocals. There may be more than one standard. Obviously you were WRONG to label your desk, with sticky labels that could be peeled off to boot, not considering that someone else might need to come along and mix your band. Or not, guitard mate 'n'all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Should have hidden the masking tape and sharpie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirellithecat Posted November 26, 2023 Author Share Posted November 26, 2023 A bit of an Update ..... and a question. Been "implementing" the changes outlined in this post. The GOOD STUFF All instruments in mix but only Vocals and Kick/Snare to FOH. Reducing Stage Volume and ensuring better monitor positioning makes it possible to control feedback. It's very difficult to get the idea over that, if one feed is too loud, it's better to reduce it rather than increase ALL the others to get the balance right. But, I guess, he who has the mixer can overcome this!! Using new Shure 215 IEM's (via Xvive U4) which are excellent in reducing Stage Volume (for my ears!) . Used an ambient mic (an old vocal mic with poor noise rejection!) on a mic stand positioned just above head height and "aimed" to catch as much ambient sound as possible. This really does make a very big difference in the "feels like I'm playing live" experience and could become the main "feed" into the IEM mix with some additional bass to help hear the notes better. Last night's gig (pic), worked really well (for me at least) certainly to start with. The BAD Stuff 2/3rds of the way through 1st set it all fell apart. Finally dawned on me that the Guitarist had turned up both guitar amps , "only a smidge", 'cos from his position, with his ear plugs in, he felt the sound was a bit thin and he couldn't feel the guitar. And anyway (I kid you not) the punters walking in front of the band didn't flinch so we weren't too loud!! Question Any good way to stop this happening ..... or tips on how to tackle it? Or ...... Anyone need a bass player, with great PA set-up, somewhere in the North West!!😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted November 26, 2023 Share Posted November 26, 2023 Any good way to stop this happening? Decent etiquette/discipline on stage, simple as that. In my bands there are two types of players, those who understand audio and who are allowed to touch things once set up, and those who don’t and who aren’t. The idea that any individual player can simply change their settings to suit some immediate perceptual/emotional/ego need doesn't get past the grown ups in the band 👍 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted November 26, 2023 Share Posted November 26, 2023 If that is the setting he likes then mark it with a pen on his amp. Not a sharpie or anything indelible. 😆 Then next time balance the band to that. Our guitarist has his always set at the same point. Rehearsal, practice or gig. As long as its not overpowering the stage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stub Mandrel Posted November 26, 2023 Share Posted November 26, 2023 4 hours ago, Pirellithecat said: Question Any good way to stop this happening ..... or tips on how to tackle it? Fit one of these to both Gain and Master Volume controls. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted November 26, 2023 Share Posted November 26, 2023 4 hours ago, Pirellithecat said: Any good way to stop this happening ..... or tips on how to tackle it? Insist that his amp be on a tilt back stand that aims the speakers at his head. If there's going to be suffering from his volume let him be the first to experience it. As for the ear plugs, if they're not buds to hear the monitor mix he's playing too loud. The backline should only be pushing the stage volume, not the room. Quote All instruments in mix but only Vocals and Kick/Snare to FOH. They should all be in the FOH, bass included. High pass the bass and keys, if any, so the only thing in the FOH from them is the higher directional frequencies that need to be there for even distribution across the room. Also try aiming your lower cab towards the drummer, so he can hear your mids. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirellithecat Posted November 26, 2023 Author Share Posted November 26, 2023 4 hours ago, TimR said: If that is the setting he likes then mark it with a pen on his amp. Not a sharpie or anything indelible. 😆 Then next time balance the band to that. Our guitarist has his always set at the same point. Rehearsal, practice or gig. As long as its not overpowering the stage. I'd be deaf within a month ........ Problem solved I guess 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirellithecat Posted November 26, 2023 Author Share Posted November 26, 2023 1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said: Insist that his amp be on a tilt back stand that aims the speakers at his head. If there's going to be suffering from his volume let him be the first to experience it. As for the ear plugs, if they're not buds to hear the monitor mix he's playing too loud. The backline should only be pushing the stage volume, not the room. They should all be in the FOH, bass included. High pass the bass and keys, if any, so the only thing in the FOH from them is the higher directional frequencies that need to be there for even distribution across the room. Also try aiming your lower cab towards the drummer, so he can hear your mids. Thanks Bill. Working on it!! But still resistance as the baked in belief is that it's not possible to get "that" sound without driving the guitar amp/ cab. And the ear plugs are just that! And the cab has a slanted top baffle!! I'm doomed,🙄😓 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kickass Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 (edited) Maybe you could post a recording of his sound, or maybe a video with him making that noise and saying what it is that is so important. Some of the guitar players here might be able to suggest how to make that noise with less volume. Or should that be "fewer" volume? Would be good if we knew the guitar type, the signal path and the amp/cab to help define "that" sound. D Edited November 27, 2023 by Kickass spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted November 27, 2023 Share Posted November 27, 2023 2 hours ago, Pirellithecat said: But still resistance as the baked in belief is that it's not possible to get "that" sound without driving the guitar amp/ cab. That's quite likely if his amp is too big. Quote Some of the guitar players here might be able to suggest how to make that noise with less volume. A smaller amp. 50 watts into one twelve is sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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