Anyone happy to share the do's and don'ts of how to set up for a live gig in a pub?

[TimR]

Low pass filters on all mics. 

 

Use the AUX for monitors, not 'monitor' output which tends to be a mono of your main FOH mix.

 

A small amount of kick and (if you have them) overheads, together with a small amount of guitar in the mains will get you a more balanced sound FOH, rather than trying to balance everything using backline. Not for boosting drum or guitar volume, just for evening out the spread, you can then have quieter on stage volume. 

 

Good luck. 

[Pirellithecat]

50 minutes ago, TimR said:

Low pass filters on all mics. ✅

 

Use the AUX for monitors, not 'monitor' output which tends to be a mono of your main FOH mix.✅

 

A small amount of kick and (if you have them) overheads, together with a small amount of guitar in the mains will get you a more balanced sound FOH, rather than trying to balance everything using backline. Not for boosting drum or guitar volume, just for evening out the spread, you can then have quieter on stage volume. 

 

Yep, might wean the band onto this - at the moment it's just vocals and kick/ snare via FOH.

Good luck. 

 

[Acebassmusic]

On 21/09/2023 at 21:20, Phil Starr said:

The final trick is to have a technical rehearsal once in a while to give you time to set up more thoroughly without an audience present.

 

Yes, yes and yes!

 

I used to have technical rehearsals with my old band whenever I got new PA toys or there'd been sound issues on a gig. At the gig I would be the bass player, backing vocalist, lighting guy, sound engineer and band leader so anything that simplified things beforehand helped a lot.

 

For the technical reheasal I found it best to get a pub / bar / big room to do this in undisturbed for a few hours. The first time I did this there were grumbles from certain band members about us wasting time / bored / we could do this at the gig etc..... all duly ignored as this was MY practice time to make the band sound better.

 

I set the band up as if we were playing a gig with full PA and monitor mixes but had the desk out front so I could hear what was happening and adjust accordingly. I could now spend some "me time" understanding how the combination of mics, effect, monitors, feeds etc interact and get used to what desk changes work and what dont. Familiarity with the equipment was first done by reading the manual beforehand 😲 and then in action during the rehearsal. Trying to adjust or fault find, under pressure on a gig is not fun.

 

Band members could also get themselves a long lead or wireless so they can get in front of the PA to hear and understand the difference between stage mix and FOH. It also seemed to reduce the instances of "phantom volume changes"  during the gig 🤣.

 

Proposing a technical rehearsal (or even soundcheck at gigs) with my current band has fallen on deaf ears.........

 

 

 

 

[Phil Starr]

57 minutes ago, Acebassmusic said:

 

Proposing a technical rehearsal (or even soundcheck at gigs) with my current band has fallen on deaf ears.........

Presumably as a result of the sound levels at gigs.

[TimR]

Unfortunately you will find that musicians will constantly complain about the levels and the mix. And it will be the PA/Soundman/other members of the band - and not what they're doing themselves. 

 

If you find a way of turning down a guitarist's stage volume, other than tilting the cab and pointing it directly at his head, let us know. 

[Pirellithecat]

Pardon?

[Acebassmusic]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Presumably as a result of the sound levels at gigs.

 

Yes, one guitarist has just had their ears tested and found 50% hearing left in 1 ear. 😲

 

Another thing to consider during any technical rehearsals is the tone / sound of each instrument and how they interplay. I mentioned in another thread about earplugs that my time with the band may be limited because of volume levels when rehearsing that when I mimed for 4 songs, because of the bass heavy guitar tones and volume no-one noticed I was missing. 😭😭🤣🤣

 

[gjones]

I haven't been able to read the whole thread but in your initial post you said only the vocals and drums go through the FOH. It makes me wonder why the drums aren't loud enough to be heard acoustically out front?

 

If your drummer isn't loud enough to be heard above the band, when you're playing in a pub, then the band is too loud.

 

I like loud bands but I've rarely heard a band, playing in a pub, that drowns out their drummer.

[TimR]

Not to make drums louder, but to mix them. The drummer should be playing at stage volume and let the PA lift the rest to the audience. 

[Pirellithecat]

The issue with drums is that whilst very loud overall, the Kick drum and to a lesser degree, the Snare, benefit from reinforcement.  It is odd, but the volume of the band seems independent of these 2 aspects to the extent that, even in smaller venues, the reinforcement benefits the overall sound. 

But yes, we are too loud, certainly on stage and possibly in the "auditorium".    I'm working on it.............. 

[Phil Starr]

It’s becoming clearer that you have two issues to address but only one problem. The first is that nobody can really hear what they are doing and the second is acoustic feedback. The first is caused by too much sound at their ears and the second by too much at the mics. None of this is down to you, they have to change or accept that they can never sound as good as other bands. 
 

So addressing the monitoring. They can all hear themselves, if they were at home on their own they’d hear themselves without the PA or the monitors. With what you have they’d probably be deafened. The problem is everyone else being too loud. If everyone else turned down you’d all hear the vocals. It may well be that the guitarist is drowning out his own vocals, but the reality is that with stage monitoring you can’t alll be the loudest sound in a small space. Only one thing can be the loudest sound and the best way of achieving that is to all agree what that is and to turn everything else down. They won’t agree of course and the best you can do is to agree to all be at the same volume. The mantra has to be a consistent ‘you can’t hear, everyone turn down’. Nobody wins a volume war!
 

There is only one way round this. If you can isolate your ears from everyone else’s monitors then you can have what you want. Plug your ears and make a hole you can squirt your own mix in. In-ears it is then. 
 

Im seriously concerned for your guitarist, with that level of hearing loss he needs to manage his sound exposure really carefully or his gigging days will be over, and soon. It’s also not fair to the rest of the band for him to expect to be twice as loud as the rest of the band to compensate for his hearing loss. Get him to wear a good fitting set of over ears at rehearsals if you can. It’ll prove that headphones will improve his guitar and singing without impinging upon everyone else, and he’ll be able to hear at levels that won’t make his hearing loss worse. If he doesn’t believe you get him to talk to an audiologist, his remaining hearing is probably already fragile.

 

Im sure we can all give some tips about reducing feedback if you can’t get the so and so’s to turn down but this is long enough

’

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Downunderwonder]

Yup. Can't hear XyZ? Turn yourself down.

 

Curious, what amps are being used?

[Stub Mandrel]

There's a tiny pocketbook by Paul White called Basic Live Sound - get a copy. It feels like a compilation of magazine articles, and some of it is VERY basic but it covers what you need.

 

The best bit of advice (missed by most people) set the faders at the 0dB level, and set the gain for each channel with the loudest likely signal going into them to give 0dB (or even easier, use a PFL (pre-fade listen) button to do this if your mixer has one. This will give you the best signal-to-noise ratio and make sure you have plenty of headroom.

The other best bit of advice is to set all the EQ at 12 o'clock unless you are really sure something needs something else. I once transformed a band's sound simply by getting rid of the absurd EQ settings the usual guy had got to by tweaking everything a bit at each rehearsal.

[Pirellithecat]

 

2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Yup. Can't hear XyZ? Turn yourself down.

 

Curious, what amps are being used?

Well - 2 guitar amps - I think its a 40 Watt Marshal Combo and a Friedman JEL-20/Marshall ?? via a 2x12 Marshal cab - so at face value not too loud.  But they are  ........... 

(My Genzler 800Watt Magellan via a 15/12inch Mesa rig rarely get above 10 O'Clock on the volume, but even that in small spaces is LOUD!) 
To put this into context - we use RCF 932's and a RCF 705 Sub.   The Sub's just ticking over but the volume on the Tops is pretty much full at most gigs.  
So, I'm embarrassed to say we are just too loud! 

I've enough info to make a stab at solving some of the on stage volume issues and am negotiating within the band.  Controlling the overall volume will come but it'll take a while.

 

I'll check out the Paul White  pocketbook - thanks. 

 

[Downunderwonder]

Anything 2x12 can tear your head off if cranked up. As our friend Phil said, either get them pointed at the players' heads and mic'd, or it's IEM time. 

[Chienmortbb]

7 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Anything 2x12 can tear your head off if cranked up. As our friend Phil said, either get them pointed at the players' heads and mic'd, or it's IEM time. 

 A good guitar 12 will have a sensitivity of around 100 dB at one watt at 1 m. So that say 32 watts you are closing in on 115dB. @Phil Starruses 120dB as the volume of a loud drummer when looking at bass cabs.

 

Adding a second cabinet,

• depending on the room,
• how you measure it,
• what rule of thumb is flavour of the month,
• whether Bill or Alex are wearing red socks,

will add anywhere between 3 and 6dB providing the amplifier can drive the reduced load.

 

As dB are added to create a total, 123dB between a guitard and a loud drummer.  Or louder than a modern day Jet engine. They have got to learn to play quieter together because to compete, each member of the band need to get louder and heading towards 130dB is ludicrous. 
 

One  trick I have used in the past. The guitarist had a combo with chicken head knobs. I undid the master volume knob on bid amp and turn it about 45 degrees before tightening the grub screw. Then pointed  it to the same number on the dial as before. He only realised one day that his amp went above 11😜

Edited September 27, 2023 by Chienmortbb

[Phil Starr]

It’s worth noting that midrange frequencies sound 12-18db louder than some bass frequencies so 115db of Guitar is a lot louder than 120db of bass. 
 

You really don’t want to be on a small stage with a fully cranked Vox AC30!

[Pirellithecat]

Right ..... Sound Meter app installed - I'll measure on stage and FOH volumes just to check that it is really loud and not me being a sensitive sort of chap.   I know it won't be very accurate, but it'll give an indication.   I'll ask the experts in the band what they consider loud before I do it and share the results. 

 

I'd be very surprised if we're not in excess of 120dB on stage ..... let's see. 

 

[TimR]

If it feels too loud and you can't hear each other. 

 

Then it's too loud, regardless of what any meters say. 

[Chienmortbb]

4 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

You really don’t want to be on a small stage with a fully cranked Vox AC30!

Yeah, you do! No, seriously, you are right. Those 30 watt twins like the AC30, Selmer Zodiac 30 etc were very loud and in the 60s were a much better bet than the Fender twin combos. Looking back, I wonder why I "upgraded" to a Sound City 100 watt stack. Once I was a guitarist, but I had therapy and became a bassist.

[tauzero]

14 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

There's a tiny pocketbook by Paul White called Basic Live Sound - get a copy. It feels like a compilation of magazine articles, and some of it is VERY basic but it covers what you need.

 

There's a couple on Ebay. One fewer now.

[Acebassmusic]

16 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Yup. Can't hear XyZ? Turn yourself down.

 

What???? Turn DOWN??? 😲  Radical statements like that will get you in trouble 🤣🤣

 

How many time have I heard that phrase "I cant hear XyZ...can you turn it up?" I've found in many cases turning up just compounds the problem. The book Basic Live Sound is a great little book. 👍

[Chienmortbb]

49 minutes ago, Acebassmusic said:

 

What???? Turn DOWN??? 😲  Radical statements like that will get you in trouble 🤣🤣

 

How many time have I heard that phrase "I cant hear XyZ...can you turn it up?" I've found in many cases turning up just compounds the problem. The book Basic Live Sound is a great little book. 👍

I thought I had heard of it, I have had a copy for years.

[Downunderwonder]

I'll bite, iirc 105dB is enough to cause hearing damage over a couple of hours.

 

Thought I'd better check. According to CDC hearing damage possible from 100dB at the earhole after 15 minutes.

 

It is important to distinguish dB at source from dB where listening. The CDC does a rubbish job of that!

[TimR]

Soundpressure level drops by 6dB for each doubling of distance. 

So 

0m 0dB

1m 6dB

2m 12dB

4m 18dB

8m 24dB