Covers bands - are they just parasites? (& how PRS works)

[Phil Starr]

Not parasites but symbiotes. Including the poor suckers that run open mics.

 

I've never really understood the world in which some musicians look down upon others, I've generally found it rare amongst musicians, most of the ones I know are supportive of everyone who gives it a go from encouraging a 12 year old with a mobile phone singing Karaoke through to my opera singing friend who encourages my appalling backing vocals. I have a friend who runs an open mic dedicated to people who write their own songs. Thanks to his enthusiasm I've heard the first stumblings of a teenager singing to two chords and seen him take them through to BBC introducing, is that a parasite? I've run my own open mic and given bands their first chance to try out in front of an audience or to use a decent PA, encouraged people who gave up with stage fright to give it another go in later life. Does it worry me that most of the songs were written by people who are absent and don't even know we exist? 

 

The unusual state of affairs is the monetisation of music, copyright, ownership and monopoly. Music was passed on orally for centuries in written history and for millennia before writing existed in all probability. My mother and her sister used to buy sheet music from Tin-Pan Alley and sing round a piano. All covers. Music has given people pleasure and served a social function throughout history and it arises out of a community. Everyone starts somewhere with almost zero skills, some fly and others just manage but the impulse to share or just join in is strong and it is what keeps music alive.

 

I'll bet most people here started to learn bass by copying someone else's songs. No original music is born of ignorance, at the very least it is inspired by absorbing all the music around us. There would have been no Rolling Stones or Beatles without Rock and Roll covers, no rock and roll without the blues and gospel musicians and no blues without the African slaves. Can you imagine the cost of instruments if only a few elite musicians bought them? Would there have been a Fender or Gibson and electric pickups without the amateur enthusiasm for playing Hawaiian guitar?  A network of studio's and rehearsal rooms without amateurs and semi pro's paying for them. Music is deeply embedded in our society and is the better for it and the broader the base the better for all of us. The world is a better place for having covers bands and for people making up playlists for others to have a good party and I'm in awe of anyone who attempts to make s song for other people. 

 

Luckily there aren't many here looking down their noses at other peoples music, there is room for all of us.

 

 

[Dan Dare]

Yeah, like, er man, I only play originals. I mean, I've got integrity. I don't copy or rip off uvver musicians. My latest song goes C, Am, D, G. Nobody's ever dun nuffink like that before. Move over Mozart. Etc, etc, etc.

 

Ain't nothing new under the sun.

[AlexDelores]

11 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

Yeah, like, er man, I only play originals. I mean, I've got integrity. I don't copy or rip off uvver musicians. My latest song goes C, Am, D, G. Nobody's ever dun nuffink like that before. Move over Mozart. Etc, etc, etc.

 

Ain't nothing new under the sun.

Yep! This is basically the basis of Ed Sheeran’s latest court battle!
 

I really hope he delivered it in the same way 😂

[3below]

2 hours ago, Richard R said:

My understanding was that the venue should be paying their PRS fees, and asking you for the setlist for their returns, so that artists do get paid. Is that not how it works now?

Happy to be corrected,  as my experience is with copyright for churche services, cafés and livestreaming. 

 

In 50 years of playing live, only ever been asked once.  It proved somewhat difficult as it was a ceilidh band playing trad tunes.  We named the English Folk Dance Society as the copyright holder.  Hope they got some royalties.

[neepheid]

1 hour ago, Skybone said:

However, if you do play covers, be prepared for the "you didn't play it like the original/my personal favourite version".

 

That's a new one on me too.  Sure, there's always the indignant "what do you mean you don't know/play <insert obscure track, or something that clearly can't be done by a four piece with one guitar>?"

[Rexel Matador]

If Rory Gallagher, Jimi Hendrix, John Bonham, Jack Bruce, Duane Allman, John Lennon etc etc all fancy coming back from the dead and playing two 45s at Fogherty's this Friday night for their share of £200, I'll gladly step aside. Otherwise, the punters will just have to make do.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Rexel Matador

[UglyDog]

39 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Luckily there aren't many here looking down their noses at other peoples music

Mybe not, but judging by this statement from earlier in the thread...

"They tend to play in the sorts of establishments I wouldn't normally frequent, that appear to be mostly filled with the sorts of people I would want to avoid"

...it appears cover band venue and audience snobbery is alive and well.

 

 

[3below]

This thread had got me thinking about the nuances of language and what we do.  For many years in my youth I played in ceilidh bands playing trad tunes - passed on by tradition, played as we  interpreted them. Was / is this a covers band? or was / is it a living tradition?  The same could apply to a blues band I have recently stepped into, at what point does a song become a living tradition  e.g. dust my broom, nothing like the Robert Johnson original but heavily influenced by many blues players along the line.  For that matter the prog jazz rock band I am in playing all originals is influenced by what has gone before (even though we try to avoid obviously doing it)- is that elements of covering?  Probably time to stop overthinking it and just enjoy playing music.

Edited September 24, 2023 by 3below

[SumOne]

Some very far left/rightwing thinkers and certain religious views might say all professional musicians are decadent parasites - suckling time and money away from productive society. 

[Stub Mandrel]

Oh well, that's John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers consigned to the dustbin of history for a start. And God help any folk or jazz bands out there... let alone the orchestras!

 

To be honest I read the original post and assumed it was a troll - let's face it almost everyone on Basschat is in or has been in a covers band. For the vast majority of us it's the only way to be in a gigging band.

 

Back in the 80s/90s I was in bands who had less of a following than the blues band I'm in now, but we would play a whole night of originals in a pub or club and get a response comparable to what a covers band gets these days.

 

But there can be a lot of creativity in playing covers (especially blues where improvisation and random events are de riguer). It need not be cross-stitch, it can be more like needlepoint where you may well be embroidering an established design, but you have all sorts of choices of stitch, colour and texture.

 

Ultimately, people playing and listening to live music is one of the most unifying and positive things human beings can do. From being one of a bunch of drunken students singing Hey Jude on the way back from a pub crawl to gigging 'popular tunes' to improvising a bassline to a song I've never heard before at a jam, it's all good.

 

Music should be rated by what it brings to people's lives; discussing its originality or technical merits can be fun and entertaining, but that doesn't really matter. If people are enjoying, or getting some other benefits like solace or nostalgia, from making or listening to it, music is good. Be grateful for those who add to the sum total of music that's there to perform, but don't diss cover bands for giving people what they want.

[Stub Mandrel]

49 minutes ago, 3below said:

This thread had got me thinking about the nuances of language and what we do.  For many years in my youth I played in ceilidh bands playing trad tunes - passed on by tradition, played as we  interpreted them. Was / is this a covers band? or was / is it a living tradition?  The same could apply to a blues band I have recently stepped into, at what point does a song become a living tradition  e.g. dust my broom, nothing like the Robert Johnson original but heavily influenced by many blues players along the line.  For that matter the prog jazz rock band I am in playing all originals is influenced by what has gone before (even though we try to avoid obviously doing it)- is that elements of covering?  Probably time to stop overthinking it and just enjoy playing music.

 

Exactly. There's a 'right' sort of cover and the wrong sort some professional musicians like to look down on.

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

Move over Mozart.

 

Can't fool me, that's just a rework of Roll Over Beethoven.

[sandy_r]

27 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

...

)t need not be cross-stitch, it can be more like needlepoint where you may well be embroidering an established design, but you have all sorts of choices of stitch, colour and texture.

...

 

...I got a bit distracted for a moment and missed the bit where this topic moved on from 'playing' covers to 'making' them... 😉

 

(different threads i s'pose)

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by sandy_r

[Stub Mandrel]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 Good shout. In 10 years of doing paid covers gigs, I've never been asked once for a set list from the venue. Sounds to me that none of them are paying PRS fees. Also clearly not worthwhile for the PRS to actually enforce this either?

 

PRS is only interested in getting venues to pay for 'TheMusicLicence' while bands and venues can submit setlists they (rarely?) request them and AFAICS the money goes into a pot which gets shared out pro rata. If you play your own music the writer (not performer) can submit a setlist to be paid a pittance...

[Richard R]

19 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 

PRS is only interested in getting venues to pay for 'TheMusicLicence' while bands and venues can submit setlists they (rarely?) request them and AFAICS the money goes into a pot which gets shared out pro rata. If you play your own music the writer (not performer) can submit a setlist to be paid a pittance...

 

So of things are paid out pro-rata,  there must be some idea of who is playing what all the country to determine the share? 

[Richard R]

25 minutes ago, sandy_r said:

 

...I got a bit distracted for a moment and missed the bit where this topic moved on from playing covers to making them... 😉

 

(different threads i s'pose)

 

 

Double pun post, well played.

[Boodang]

Until recently I've never done covers, nothing against it but it's always been jazz standards (a covers band I guess but with a small audience) or originals (even smaller audience!). Now I'm in two covers bands and loving it, the audience loves it and we definitely do not feel parasites when everyone is having fun. I think also the thing a covers band brings is the variety you wouldn't necessarily get from an artist and if you pull it off (hard work as a musician to get all the styles covered) there's something about live music, as opposed to just pressing play on spotify, that is very powerful and satisfying.

PS was in an originals band once, getting nowhere, small gigs, no audience. So instead we marketed ourselves as a covers band specialising in obscure tunes (it was the same stuff, we just lied). Because people believed it wasn't originals they liked it. We never kept track of who we said did any particular tune so it changed every gig but either no one noticed or cared.

[meterman]

This is a really (well, to me at least) interesting subject. 
 

I would say that covers bands are an essential part of the live music ecosystem. Loads of people love playing in them and equally loads of people love going to see them in their local venues, just so they can hear a bunch of their favourite tunes whilst having a few drinks and a good time on their Friday night or whenever.

 

Pubs, clubs, bars and larger venues all benefit from having covers bands on, it helps keep the live music scene alive in some towns, and it’s a brilliant outlet for the musicians who enjoy playing covers, or those who don’t write their own material, or maybe do but don’t feel confident playing it in front of the Dog & Duck crowd on a bevvied up Saturday night.

 

Also, sooooo many big pro originals bands relied on covers early on in their careers. Not just the obvious Beatles, Rolling Stones, The Who, Led Zeppelin (arguably), but Kasabian were more or less an Oasis tribute band when they started out. Loads of soul and R&B outfits leaned heavily on covers in their live sets too. And artists like Bryan Ferry or Siouxsie & The Banshees or John Lennon (and many more) cut covers albums during their careers.

 

Full disclosure: I’ve done very little covers band work over the 40 years I’ve been playing, and have been lucky enough to be able to get away with playing originals most of the time, but I’m not too up myself to rule out playing in a covers band for fun or for a bit of pocket money if the opportunity came my way. I’d love to play in a classic ska covers band, or a soul revue, or a reggae covers band, or even something as left field as a Wire covers band. I reckon something like that could be a brilliant laugh.
 

I’d have to draw the line at playing “Sex On Fire” though. Or that flipping Killers song....

[diskwave]

Some people on here really do have some funny ideas. So all the worlds great orchestras playing the great classics are parasites? And all our pop heroes really thought their material wouldn't be played/honoured by us lesser mortals?  Id be absolutely flattered if some young band wanted to have a go at a tune I wrote years ago.....Imagine Mick and Keef (hypothetically of course) walking down the road and hearing the distant sound of one of their tunes wafting up the street....id imagine it would be kinda exciting.

[Boodang]

16 minutes ago, meterman said:

I’d have to draw the line at playing “Sex On Fire” though. Or that flipping Killers song....

Unfortunately that flipping Killers song goes down so well it ends up getting played most gigs, but... the audience reaction is so strong it always puts a smile on my face.

Worse for me is the colour tv/ microwave oven song, so I've turned it into a challenge to make it as funky as possible without the audience noticing. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Boodang

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, UglyDog said:

Mybe not, but judging by this statement from earlier in the thread...

"They tend to play in the sorts of establishments I wouldn't normally frequent, that appear to be mostly filled with the sorts of people I would want to avoid"

...it appears cover band venue and audience snobbery is alive and well.

 

 

I’m not sure about snobbery but from my experiences in gigging primarily punk & Oi (originals) I’ve seen far more violence in “regular cover venues” than on those scenes. 

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, UglyDog said:

Mybe not, but judging by this statement from earlier in the thread...

"They tend to play in the sorts of establishments I wouldn't normally frequent, that appear to be mostly filled with the sorts of people I would want to avoid"

...it appears cover band venue and audience snobbery is alive and well.

That is true though for me. I do (happily) play covers, and I play in the sort of establishments that I wouldn't normally frequent (pubs) filled with people I would want to avoid (drunk people). So yes, for me it is true and I enjoy it. 

 

[sandy_r]

1 hour ago, Boodang said:

...

Worse for me is the colour tv/ microwave oven song, so I've turned it into a challenge to make it as funky as possible without the audience noticing. 

so - that's the way you do it

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by sandy_r

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Richard R said:

 

So of things are paid out pro-rata,  there must be some idea of who is playing what all the country to determine the share? 

 

I tried to work out what they actually do, but their whole website seems to be written on the basis of providing partial information, so you have to contact them to find out what is actually needed...

Edited September 24, 2023 by Stub Mandrel

[TimR]

1 hour ago, Richard R said:

 

So of things are paid out pro-rata,  there must be some idea of who is playing what all the country to determine the share? 

 

I think in this case "Pro rata" just means equal share to everyone. Not proportionally according to input. So all the money gets paid into a pot each year and every musician registered with PRS gets a %age of that pot each year.