Monitor Mixes

[jimmyb625]

Looking through various posts and topics, I thought it might be interesting to get some feedback on what people look for in their monitor mixes.

 

Do you want a CD quality version, complete with 20hz to 20khz audio reproduction, or are you happy enough just to have a vaguely intelligible noise?

 

Do you need a full mix of every instrument, including the singer's badly judged mongolian nose flute, or are you just after one or two key instruments?

 

Should your monitor volume be capable of siesmic damage to the building and "moving some air" (pro-tip, a fan is far more efficient at moving air), or would your stage volume need turning up in a library?

 

Maybe the collective hive mind of basschat could come to a general consensus, which might be of use to others? Obviously, I've been around long enough to know how improbable that's likely to be, but still...

 

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

You don't need anything below 100-125Hz as you'll hear that from the mains, and if you put it in the monitors it will make everything muddy. I run the same mix as out front, as I'm mixing from the stage and want to hear in the monitors what the audience hears. I run just loud enough so everyone can hear everyone else.

[warwickhunt]

30 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

You don't need anything below 100-125Hz as you'll hear that from the mains, and if you put it in the monitors it will make everything muddy. I run the same mix as out front, as I'm mixing from the stage and want to hear in the monitors what the audience hears. I run just loud enough so everyone can hear everyone else.

 

What @Bill Fitzmaurice said except in 'my' monitor (I supply my own unless I know what to expect); in my monitor I want the FOH mix + a bit more of me (bass and vocals).  

 

I would expect the mix to be good enough quality that I'd differentiate the mix even through my attenuated ear plugs.

[mep]

As we are a 4 piece of vocals, guitar, bass and drums we only need vocals (including my backing) and guitar in the monitors so it's kept and easy to adjust for each venue.

[Dan Dare]

Bill's spot on above. Leaving aside the fact that achieving a CD quality monitor mix is impossible unless you spend serious money or go the in-ear or even silent stage route, the aim should be to balance levels onstage to bring quieter sounds up to the level of louder ones. Drums and instruments that employ backline are not likely to need as much, if anything, in the monitors as vocals. Singers need to be prominent to aid pitching and phrasing. It's always best to avoid very low frequencies in monitors, as Bill points out, or everything will quickly become mud and you will likely have issues with feedback. I aim for intelligibility and some brightness, without cutting peoples' heads off, obvs, in a monitor mix.

[TimR]

I frequently use two systems.

 

1. Self operated band PA. This normally just has vocals. Although I'm wrestling with the PA owner who insists on just giving whatever is FOH mix which occasionally will have a bit of drums and guitar. This is only because he doesn't understand how to use his mixer and won't let anyone show him. Work in progress...

 

2. Large PA with operator, festivals etc.

I've been using provided backline more and more with a DI to the desk. In this case usually the backline is tiny and the Bass is put into the 'fairly large' monitors. So I'll have guitar and vocals as well. This is my preffered method as it means stage volume is loud but not overpowering (and i just turn up with a bass guitar). As opposed to trying to get the backline to do the stage work or struggling with load ins and band swaps.

 

Not had any issues as Bill describes as the sound man sorts that out so no idea what magic he is doing.

Edited October 2, 2023 by TimR

[JPJ]

I am in the fortunate position of using the Behringer XR18 desk with six aux outs meaning we can all have separate monitor feeds containing just what we want/need. I'm still in the experimental phase with IEM's and I've found that even with foam tips, the isolation isn't the best with loads of stage sound spill into my in-ears. So for my mix, I take 100% of the lead vocal, the backing vocals at about -3dB (if the lead vocal is at 0dB), a tickle of guitars (probably -4/-5dB) and my bass signal at 0dB. Given that I am normally stood in close proximity to the shed builder drummer, I do not have any drums in my IEM feed. 

Interestingly, I recently did a gig with FOH provided. The small stage is in the corner of the room, and is obviously a big empty box as it really resonates with bass drum and bass guitar frequencies. To keep things simple, I used my custom moulded ear plugs that have the 10dB filters in them (best compromise I've found between noise reduction and total isolation from the audience). I actually had a better 'mix' with the ear plugs than with my in-ears, and no ear fatigue after the gig either. 

As I said, I am still in the experimental stage with IEM's and I guess this shows I still have a way to go to achieve the best monitor mix for me. I'm also wondering whether IEM's are only really useful on silent stages or on much larger stages where physical separation is greater and hence stage noise spill is reduced? 

[casapete]

I’m the only person in my band who uses a conventional wedge monitor onstage, everyone else

uses IEMs. I like to hear the FOH sound in the room, whilst having enough in my wedge of the things

that are key to my playing and singing. This is usually lead vocal, backing vocals (including my own),

drums ( kick and snare with some toms and hats etc) and acoustic guitar with some electric (if it’s

a large stage and I can’t hear the guitar cab). Don’t have any of the violin or two cellos in it as they

are usually loud enough being on my side of the stage. The monitor really does the job of giving

me a balance of what is lacking on my side I guess.

Have to add that we use electronic drums, so no onstage sound for me other than my wedge and my rig.

I also don’t like my bass in my monitor, as it doesn’t sound like my rig! If I need any more of that I can 

just adjust my amp. It all works fine for me, and I like having control over my overall monitor

level - depending on the venue/my mood I can have it all pretty quiet or alternatively kicking

a*s without really bothering anyone else. 😊

[mike257]

My most regular touring role is as a monitor engineer, so this is my typical approach if I'm starting from scratch with an artist/working as an in-house monitor engineer.

 

For a wedge mix - I'll start off with each persons own instrument/voice in their wedge, plus anything that isn't making its own loud noise on stage (keyboards, sample pads, backing tracks, acoustic guitar, lead vox etc).  I don't tend to put drums or amplified electric guitars in to start with unless its a large stage/festival stage and you're sufficiently far enough away from the person at the opposite end to not hear them well. I'll usually throw some kick in the bass players wedge, and some kick/snare/toms for a drummer.  If there's multiple vocals that need the lead/each other as a pitching reference I'll make sure that's in there too. Basically, I'll fill the gaps around the sound that already exists acoustically in the space.  That's usually a good starting point for most folks, and then I'll adjust to taste as requested. I avoid putting a full "FOH" mix in immediately as it's just adding more noise on stage and clouding what's going on if there's already guitar amps roaring and a drummer going full tilt. 

 

For IEMs, if you're wearing custom moulds you've generally got a very high level of isolation from outside noise, so I'll start with more of a general balance of the whole band with each persons own instrument/voice pushed up on top, plus a splash of ambient mics, that I'll ride up further in breaks between songs or in parts where there's a lot of crowd participation/singing. Again, this is usually a good starting point, but I can often end up miles away from this once an artist has made tweaks for their preferences. 

 

As a general note, if someone's struggling to hear something, it's better to find what's getting in the way and pull it back to make space, rather than continually turning things up until it's all a bit of a mess. 

 

Also very much endorse what @Bill Fitzmaurice has to say about low end in wedges - I'll slap a high pass filter over every wedge mix and get that low end gone.  It makes for a muddy mess on stage otherwise, and can ruin the day for whoever's mixing FOH too.

Happy to have my brains picked about monitor mixing if anyone's got questions (there's not much in there to pick though!)

[Al Krow]

11 minutes ago, mike257 said:

My most regular touring role is as a monitor engineer, so this is my typical approach if I'm starting from scratch with an artist/working as an in-house monitor engineer.

 

For a wedge mix - I'll start off with each persons own instrument/voice in their wedge, plus anything that isn't making its own loud noise on stage (keyboards, sample pads, backing tracks, acoustic guitar, lead vox etc).  I don't tend to put drums or amplified electric guitars in to start with unless its a large stage/festival stage and you're sufficiently far enough away from the person at the opposite end to not hear them well. I'll usually throw some kick in the bass players wedge, and some kick/snare/toms for a drummer.  If there's multiple vocals that need the lead/each other as a pitching reference I'll make sure that's in there too. Basically, I'll fill the gaps around the sound that already exists acoustically in the space.  That's usually a good starting point for most folks, and then I'll adjust to taste as requested. I avoid putting a full "FOH" mix in immediately as it's just adding more noise on stage and clouding what's going on if there's already guitar amps roaring and a drummer going full tilt. 

 

For IEMs, if you're wearing custom moulds you've generally got a very high level of isolation from outside noise, so I'll start with more of a general balance of the whole band with each persons own instrument/voice pushed up on top, plus a splash of ambient mics, that I'll ride up further in breaks between songs or in parts where there's a lot of crowd participation/singing. Again, this is usually a good starting point, but I can often end up miles away from this once an artist has made tweaks for their preferences. 

 

As a general note, if someone's struggling to hear something, it's better to find what's getting in the way and pull it back to make space, rather than continually turning things up until it's all a bit of a mess. 

 

Also very much endorse what @Bill Fitzmaurice has to say about low end in wedges - I'll slap a high pass filter over every wedge mix and get that low end gone.  It makes for a muddy mess on stage otherwise, and can ruin the day for whoever's mixing FOH too.

Happy to have my brains picked about monitor mixing if anyone's got questions (there's not much in there to pick though!)

 

Great post, thanks Mike! 

 

What's your view on IEM and silent stages vs using stage monitors in delivering a really good FoH sound? 

 

Is the benefit of a silent stage / IEM route more pronounced for smaller venues when the stage bleed into the FoH mix is likely to be relatively much more pronounced?

[Lozz196]

In both my current band and the last band none of us are/were keen on too much volume from the instruments in the monitors, preferring vocals to be in them. A bit of lead guitar, a bit of kick drum, a bit of bass but other than that leave the rest out. I suppose this is mostly due to lack of decent amount of time sound-checking as a properly prepared monitor mix is wonderful. When my old band supported Chelsea (the band not the football club) their singer Gene October is shall we diplomatically say a bit difficult and a bit exacting. Which ended up in simply the best on-stage sound I`ve ever had, we didn`t change anything for our requirements, no need, he`d done it all for us.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, mike257 said:

For a wedge mix - I'll start off with each persons own instrument/voice in their wedge, plus anything that isn't making its own loud noise on stage

+1, with a caveat. Upper midrange and high frequencies are very directional, so no matter how loud they may be on-axis they can be impossible to hear off-axis. Guitars with proverbial laser beam dispersion are the most obvious example, but it applies to every instrument, even the bass. You can stand behind a bass cab and hear the lows perfectly well, but the mids and highs not at all. A perfect monitor mix high passes above the frequencies that are audible without going through them, while providing the mids and highs that otherwise can't be heard. This applies to mains as well. Even in smaller venues the reason for putting everything through the PA isn't volume, it's dispersion.