a question about monitoring

[PaulWarning]

the band I'm in use a Yamaha emx 512sc power mixer which has served us well, we have one problem with it, it only has one monitor out and we have constant problems with the singer saying he can't hear himself through his IEM if the backing vocals are too loud, and I can't hear my backing vocals if the singer is loud enough to hear himself.

Is there a way of adding a small inexpensive mixer to his channel so he can just hear himself through his in ears?.

I thought a Behringer UM2 might do the job but I can't figure out how to power it up without it being connected to a lap top USB port.

just looking at this https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/SubZero-SZ-MIX04-4-Channel-Mini-Mixer/SIZ

Edited October 2, 2023 by PaulWarning

[dudewheresmybass]

two things spring to mind - Firstly if there's a direct out from his channel, perhaps try that.

secondly - something like the behringer micromon ma400

 bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=74e88231ee84f1e5JmltdHM9MTY5NjIwNDgwMCZpZ3VpZD0xMWQ5MzNmMy03YmQ0LTYzY2QtMzQzMS0yMzVmN2FiNzYyNzAmaW5zaWQ9NTIyNg&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=11d933f3-7bd4-63cd-3431-235f7ab76270&psq=behringer+micromon&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmVocmluZ2VyLmNvbS9wcm9kdWN0Lmh0bWw_bW9kZWxDb2RlPVAwNDkx&ntb=1

would provide facility to run his mike with a split to his iem, with some degree of volume adjustment

Edited October 2, 2023 by dudewheresmybass

[PaulWarning]

1 hour ago, dudewheresmybass said:

two things spring to mind - Firstly if there's a direct out from his channel, perhaps try that.

secondly - something like the behringer micromon ma400

 bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=74e88231ee84f1e5JmltdHM9MTY5NjIwNDgwMCZpZ3VpZD0xMWQ5MzNmMy03YmQ0LTYzY2QtMzQzMS0yMzVmN2FiNzYyNzAmaW5zaWQ9NTIyNg&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=11d933f3-7bd4-63cd-3431-235f7ab76270&psq=behringer+micromon&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYmVocmluZ2VyLmNvbS9wcm9kdWN0Lmh0bWw_bW9kZWxDb2RlPVAwNDkx&ntb=1

would provide facility to run his mike with a split to his iem, with some degree of volume adjustment

no, there's no direct out from his channel, unfortunately,

the Behringer looks a good option, the only snag is our singer uses a wireless mic that doesn't have an XLR connector just a standard jack.

We did use an in house PA at the weekend and he was happy enough just to have all his mic signal though his IEM, he could hear enough of the band, we only use the PA for vocals

[Marty Forrer]

I have a Studiomaster 16 channel which has two aux outs, with two aux controls on each channel strip. My drummer has his own mix for his IEMs and the rest of us have a mix for conventional monitoring. Studiomaster is a UK brand, and the guys there are very helpful.

[TimR]

On 01/10/2023 at 20:48, PaulWarning said:

looking at this https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/SubZero-SZ-MIX04-4-Channel-Mini-Mixer/SIZ

 

 

Looks like it will do what you want. 

[Huge Hands]

I have the bigger Behringer UMC-22 and was looking into using this for my own in-ear setup - to allow a feed from a mixer and blend in my own signal from my bass.  This was driven from doing a headphone (amateur) theatre pit gig and everyone shared the same mix, and they all moaned when the bass was where I needed it.

 

I never got as far as trying it, but was planning to buy a USB-A to USB-B cable and powering it from a phone charger.  I never got as far as checking the current draw requirements of the UMC-22, but figured if it ran off phantom, it probably wasn't that high.

 

My other idea was to buy a cheap mixer, similar to what you are looking at.   I haven't had such a gig since, so have shelved my ideas for now.

 

The only thing I can think that may cause you issues is that I don't think the UM-2 has a mic "through" connection, so if you use it to mix the vocal mic locally first, you will end up sending the signal to your main mixer as a line signal.  Obviously in theory with input gain balancing it shouldn't make any difference, but in my experience it may cause you more issues with controlling feedback in lively environments, especially depending on how your main mixer deals with mic/line switching preamps..  One to test and watch out for, anyway.   

Edited October 3, 2023 by Huge Hands

[TimR]

https://www.thomann.de/gb/rolls_pm_50s.htm?glp=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw9-6oBhBaEiwAHv1QvDDWDiEebifCWyBcFU6YK_3mYp-g-zurYd0t0X9lIqp6EvYB6Yy_2BoCVmQQAvD_BwE

 

[PaulWarning]

3 hours ago, Huge Hands said:

I have the bigger Behringer UMC-22 and was looking into using this for my own in-ear setup - to allow a feed from a mixer and blend in my own signal from my bass.  This was driven from doing a headphone (amateur) theatre pit gig and everyone shared the same mix, and they all moaned when the bass was where I needed it.

 

I never got as far as trying it, but was planning to buy a USB-A to USB-B cable and powering it from a phone charger.  I never got as far as checking the current draw requirements of the UMC-22, but figured if it ran off phantom, it probably wasn't that high.

 

My other idea was to buy a cheap mixer, similar to what you are looking at.   I haven't had such a gig since, so have shelved my ideas for now.

 

The only thing I can think that may cause you issues is that I don't think the UM-2 has a mic "through" connection, so if you use it to mix the vocal mic locally first, you will end up sending the signal to your main mixer as a line signal.  Obviously in theory with input gain balancing it shouldn't make any difference, but in my experience it may cause you more issues with controlling feedback in lively environments, especially depending on how your main mixer deals with mic/line switching preamps..  One to test and watch out for, anyway.   

I've ordered the Behringer MA400 , looks like it's just what we're looking for, and cheap. A couple of reviews on Amazon said the output wasn't very loud, our singer has a mic with a high output so hopefully it won't be a problem

Good point about the line through, hadn't thought of that, but like I said I couldn't power it up without my laptop, I've googled it and some others haven't got round that problem either

[dudewheresmybass]

On 02/10/2023 at 14:11, PaulWarning said:

no, there's no direct out from his channel, unfortunately,

the Behringer looks a good option, the only snag is our singer uses a wireless mic that doesn't have an XLR connector just a standard jack.

We did use an in house PA at the weekend and he was happy enough just to have all his mic signal though his IEM, he could hear enough of the band, we only use the PA for vocals

It does have a jack in as well

[Chienmortbb]

Seems you have hopefully solved your problem, I was going to suggest thec Behringer Xenyx 1002B. If has an FX  oit as Well as a Monitor out in addition to the Mai output, will work on batteries too. Sadly it has just been discontinued. 

[PaulWarning]

tried the Behringer MA400 at a gig last night, wasn't without it's problems, bit of buzzing through the PA speakers and the singer said his voice sounded like a Dalek until I turned the mic volume right down on the MA400.

Most bizarrely of all the singer said the rest of the band were just as loud through his IEM except my backing vocals, but that wasn't the case the week before when he had his own channel through an in house mixing desk.

The only thing I can think his his wireless mic (Shure SM 58 wireless) impedance is not compatible with the Behringer, making it super sensitive, the mic is high output when going straight into the PA his volume is about 50% less than no wireless mics

[Dan Dare]

I'm a bit mystified that you say the singer's SM58 wireless doesn't have an XLR connector, just a standard jack. The 58 base unit has both - a low Z output on an XLR and high Z on a jack. The MA400 should accept virtually any low Z mic'.

 

Are you taking the feed to the PA from the 58 base unit XLR and using the line level/jack output on the base unit to feed the monitors? Shouldn't you be feeding the XLR out from the base unit to the MA400 input XLR and routing it to the PA via the 'thru' XLR on the MA400? You can then route the monitor output on the MA400 to the monitors and control the level it sends to them using the 'Mon Level' control.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Dan Dare

[PaulWarning]

 I've not actually looked at the shure base unit carefully, the singer says it's not got a an XLR out, but he is a technophobe, if he's using the instrument out it could explain the high output, we're feeding the PA from the MA400 via the thru connector.

 

 

I found out you could reduce the output of the mic by 10db by holding down the channel button that improved matters

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Never use 1/4" connections when there are XLR available, for a number of reasons. If your singer isn't comfortable with that give him one of these: https://pixabay.com/vectors/loudspeaker-man-boy-holding-1459128/

Edited October 14, 2023 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Dan Dare]

9 hours ago, PaulWarning said:

 I've not actually looked at the Shure base unit carefully, the singer says it's not got a an XLR out, but he is a technophobe, if he's using the instrument out it could explain the high output, we're feeding the PA from the MA400 via the thru connector.

 

I found out you could reduce the output of the mic by 10db by holding down the channel button that improved matters.

 

If the impedance is mismatched, it may well still not sound right (you mentioned getting a dalek vocal sound) even if you can reduce the level sufficiently. Is the singer just handing you a connector and telling you to plug it into the PA? You need to look at the base unit. The outputs are on the back. There should be a XLR and jack. If the singer doesn't have an XLR cable, I assume you carry spares.

 

Either that, or is his wireless a very old or cheaper Shure model and not a SM58? That might not have an XLR out. Google "SM58 wireless mic" and you'll find plenty of pic's of the unit.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Dan Dare

[PaulWarning]

25 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

If the impedance is mismatched, it may well still not sound right (you mentioned getting a dalek vocal sound) even if you can reduce the level sufficiently. Is the singer just handing you a connector and telling you to plug it into the PA? You need to look at the base unit. The outputs are on the back. There should be a XLR and jack. If the singer doesn't have an XLR cable, I assume you carry spares.

 

Either that, or is his wireless a very old or cheaper Shure model and not a SM58? That might not have an XLR out. Google "SM58 wireless mic" and you'll find plenty of pic's of the unit.

had a look tonight, there is an XLR socket in the back, when I asked why he didn't use it he said "Well it works from the other one so I never bothered" told you he was a technophobe, I'll try it at our next gig

Edited October 14, 2023 by PaulWarning

[Dan Dare]

On 14/10/2023 at 23:59, PaulWarning said:

had a look tonight, there is an XLR socket in the back, when I asked why he didn't use it he said "Well it works from the other one so I never bothered" told you he was a technophobe, I'll try it at our next gig

 

All's well that ends well, hopefully.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

This brings up an important point: one person should be in charge of all things PA, the one who knows the most about it. That tends to be the bass player, as the challenges of our amplification forces us to become knowledgeable about it. We don't have the luxury of being able to plug into just about anything and have it sound good. Besides, we're just smarter. 😄 

[Chienmortbb]

4 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

we're just smarter.

+1

[PaulWarning]

Did a gig last night using the XLR out on the Shure base unit, everything was fine. Can recommend the the Behringer MA400 for anyone with a similar problem.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions, they've been invaluable

Edited October 25, 2023 by PaulWarning

[Chienmortbb]

On 17/10/2023 at 12:41, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

This brings up an important point: one person should be in charge of all things PA, the one who knows the most about it. That tends to be the bass player, as the challenges of our amplification forces us to become knowledgeable about it. We don't have the luxury of being able to plug into just about anyt hing and have it sound good. Besides, we're just smarter. 😄 

Correct Bill. It drives me mad that because the rest of the band do not understand, I have to treat them like babies.

 

One of my favourites? We were having feedback problems, The singer's solution, "try a different mic cable".  I have tried to explain that mic/monitor positioning is that problem. Two of our onstage mics are cardioid and two Super cardioids. The concept that they reject unwanted sounds from different angles blows their tiny minds.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Chienmortbb

[Dan Dare]

On 22/10/2023 at 16:05, Chienmortbb said:

Correct Bill. It drives me mad that because the rest of the band do not understand, I have to treat them like babies.

 

One of my favourites? We were having feedback problems, The singer's solution, "try a different mic cable".  I have tried to explain that mic/monitor positioning is that problem. Two of our onstage mics are cardioid and two Super cardioids. The concept that they reject unwanted sounds from different angles blows their tiny minds.

 

I feel your pain, although, tbf, my current band is an exception in that they are all PA savvy.

 

Re. feedback in monitors, I find it very helpful to use a decent parametric eq in the feed to the monitors to tame problem frequencies. Better placement is always the best solution, but sometimes, the size/layout of a stage (especially if it's a bit cramped) prevents you from putting mic's and monitors where you'd ideally like them.

[dudewheresmybass]

On 22/10/2023 at 10:33, PaulWarning said:

Did a gig last night using the XLR out on the Shure base unit, everything was fine. Can recommend the the Behringer MX400 for anyone with a similar problem.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions, they've been invaluable

did you mean the MA400?

[PaulWarning]

2 hours ago, dudewheresmybass said:

did you mean the MA400?

yes

[dudewheresmybass]

glad it worked out for you in the end