Bebop

[The Funk]

Through basschat I've arranged to start jamming with a jazz drummer and guitarist which I thought would be a great intro to playing, as opposed to listening, to jazz. I asked them for 2 or 3 tunes for me to work on in advance of the first session. They've come back with [i]Scrapple From The Apple[/i], [i]Confirmation[/i] and [i]Lady Bird[/i].

200bpm, chord change every bar, sometimes twice per bar. I thought I knew my areggios - but at that tempo, with so many changes, it turns out I don't [i]know them[/i] know them.

How the hell do you boppers do it? I've managed to find a good site, [url="http://www.realbook.us"]www.realbook.us[/url], which has charts you can change the key for at the click of a button and which also play a basic MIDI piano accompaniment you can change the tempo of. I've got a week to absorb as much as possible from my [i]Patterns For Jazz[/i] book, practice my various arpeggios and practice the hell out of those changes.

Any advice for a rhythm n' blues player taking his first steps in jazz?

[chris_b]

The advice I was given: Hit a different note every beat. You'll either be on the right note, a harmony to it or it'll be a passing note. Go for it!!

[YouMa]

I always thought good Be-Bop was down to feel and timing more than anything,its probably more a case of unlearning stuff you already know.

[wulf]

[quote name='The Funk' post='482019' date='May 7 2009, 01:27 PM']Any advice for a rhythm n' blues player taking his first steps in jazz?[/quote]
Ask them for some slow tunes? After a while, you will find that you can hang on round the curves even on the faster numbers but there are plenty of songs in the jazz repertoire that are typically played much slower (eg. "My Funny Valentine" works wonderfully when played at such a languid pace you have time to stop and consider each note before you commit to it).

Other than that, work on the tunes they've given but practising at a pace where you have time to think about the sequence of transitions that make up the harmonic progression rather than struggling to just throw any old note at the chords.

Wulf

[rslaing]

[quote name='The Funk' post='482019' date='May 7 2009, 02:27 PM']Through basschat I've arranged to start jamming with a jazz drummer and guitarist which I thought would be a great intro to playing, as opposed to listening, to jazz. I asked them for 2 or 3 tunes for me to work on in advance of the first session. They've come back with [i]Scrapple From The Apple[/i], [i]Confirmation[/i] and [i]Lady Bird[/i].

200bpm, chord change every bar, sometimes twice per bar. I thought I knew my areggios - but at that tempo, with so many changes, it turns out I don't [i]know them[/i] know them.

How the hell do you boppers do it? I've managed to find a good site, [url="http://www.realbook.us"]www.realbook.us[/url], which has charts you can change the key for at the click of a button and which also play a basic MIDI piano accompaniment you can change the tempo of. I've got a week to absorb as much as possible from my [i]Patterns For Jazz[/i] book, practice my various arpeggios and practice the hell out of those changes.

Any advice for a rhythm n' blues player taking his first steps in jazz?[/quote]

Just keep on practicing..........

When you start, try to use a metronome or drum machine with the appropriate rhythm and set it at no more than 120 bpm, or slower if that feels uncomfortable.

Play the roots of the chords only, no more than two to the bar until you get the changes in your head.

Sing them while you play them if you can. It helps to internalise the changes.

Then start playing 4 to the bar at the slow tempo, gradually increasing until you get up to the required speed.

At the slower tempo's it is a great opportunity to also play "indefinite" scales. In other words, start on the lowest note of your instrument that you can with a note that "fits" the first chord and play in a scalar manner upwards, changing notes to suit each chord as they change and maybe if it is slow enough, instead of playing 4 to the bar play quavers (8 to the bar.) Then do the same coming down for the highest note on your instrument. A good method to learn your instrument inside out and be able to play all the chordal and passing notes with ease.

You will find that if you can learn 10 standard numbers, you can just about play anything in the bebop library.

It also means you will definitely be able to play any commercial stuff more easily.

I strongly recommend "The Method" by Claude Werner, IMO it is about the best you can get.

Hope this helps.

Edited May 7, 2009 by rslaing

[The Funk]

Thanks for the advice guys. Keep it coming!

[Ray]

Yes, keep it coming!

Good thread Syed. I've just started a jazz trio with a drummer and my sister on piano and I have no idea what I'm doing!

[bozzbass]

A simple way I found to start make walking basslines that sound 'jazzy' is like this. It works really well on those tunes, or bits of tunes, with 2 chords per bar.

Play the root notes of the chords that occur on beats 1 and 3. On beats 2 and 4 play the note a semitone above OR below - you choose - the root of the following chord. Confused??? I think I am. Here's a wee example.

Lets say you've got some changes like

|A7b9 / Dm7 /| G13 / Cmaj 7 /|

then your bassline could go

|A Eb D Ab | G B C G |

or it could go

|A Csharp D Fsharp | G Csharp C G |

In both cases I just put the G on the end to finish the bar, you'd probably have another chord to go to. In the second example the Fsharp under Dm might sound a bit bendy put if it goes by at 200bpm no one is going to notice. Of course the obvious answer to that is simply break my procedure and make it an F natural, the third of Dm.

If you want the theory behind some of this stuff, try Googling 'tritone dominants' or 'tritone substitution'. Basically, my preceding a chord with a chromatic neighbour note is like putting a tritone dominant in front of it in a fairly melodic way. This isn't a procedure for all walking bass situations, but it's a good way to get started.

rslaing's stuff looks good too.

Edited May 7, 2009 by bozzbass

[XB26354]

Well bebop is no different to most other forms of jazz - it requires a walking bass line in either 2 feel (2 beats to bar or 4 beats to the bar). The tempo means that you normally have to simplify what you play to some degree until you have the ability to navigate the changes. With regard to chord changes, go through the tune playing only roots - at 200bpm this will sound OK. Then try Root-Root-5th-5th when there is one chord in a bar and root-5th-root-5th when there are two chords in a bar. As a lot of bebop tunes are based on old show standards the root movement will borrow a lot from the Cycle of Fourths (e.g. C to F to Bb to Eb to Ab to Db to Gb to B to E to A to D to G). The root-5th approach then has a nice leading tone into the next chord. Where there are awkward root movements (e.g. first two chords of Donna Lee = Abmaj7 - F7) use scale tones or a chromatic note immediately above or below the next chord). At this stage keep the root on the first beat and you should be fine. Arpeggios are useful in the long run but with a week to learn it's better to stick with roots, 5ths and chromatic approach notes (if you're feeling adventurous!)
If you're talking about improvising - then the other posts contain lots of good advice.
Cheers
Mat

[dlloyd]

Transcribe the original bassline. Then look for other versions of the same tune and do it again.

Those are tricky tunes for a first attempt at jazz.

[The Funk]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='482270' date='May 7 2009, 06:36 PM']Those are tricky tunes for a first attempt at jazz.[/quote]

That's what I thought.

Still, gotta start somewhere.

[Bilbo]

It is best to think in terms of key centres rather then chords. The opening five chords of Scrapple, for instance, are all in the key of F major so, rather than thinking of each chord, you can approach it as a II V I in F major - one scale fits 5 chords. You go through the chart and look at sequences of chords in order to find the 'blocks' of chords in each key centre. When you look at these charts in this way, they become a bit less iintimidating (eventually )

[Ray]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='482554' date='May 7 2009, 10:55 PM']It is best to think in terms of key centres rather then chords. The opening five chords of Scrapple, for instance, are all in the key of F major so, rather than thinking of each chord, you can approach it as a II V I in F major - one scale fits 5 chords. You go through the chart and look at sequences of chords in order to find the 'blocks' of chords in each key centre. When you look at these charts in this way, they become a bit less iintimidating (eventually )[/quote]
This sounds interesting. I'll give it a go.

Also, shouldn't that be ii V I rather than II V I?

[aj5string]

Your getting lots of good advice. Practice and transcribe are the two biggies. Play a wither the root or the third on beats one and three, then a an approach tone on 2 and 4 - chromatic notes to your next note or scale tones work best... oh, and practice again!

Or, play the double bass - then no-one will hear the notes your playing so as long as you play in time you'll be fine :-p

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Ray' post='482687' date='May 8 2009, 08:29 AM']shouldn't that be ii V I rather than II V I? [/quote]

Yup.

[stevie]

I have a midi file with an amazing transcription of Autumn Leaves by the Bill Evans trio. Can I post it here (or maybe just ask if you'd like a copy)?

[The Funk]

Thanks for all the advice. It's all good stuff!

[Mike]

[quote name='stevie' post='482896' date='May 8 2009, 01:19 PM']I have a midi file with an amazing transcription of Autumn Leaves by the Bill Evans trio. Can I post it here (or maybe just ask if you'd like a copy)?[/quote]

I don't think there are any legal repercussions with midi files. Especially with something like Autumn Leaves.

Post away!

[stevie]

[quote name='Mike' post='483153' date='May 8 2009, 05:34 PM']I don't think there are any legal repercussions with midi files. Especially with something like Autumn Leaves.

Post away![/quote]
The system won't let me. If anyone wants it I'll have to email it.

[jakenewmanbass]

Been away for a few days, and on my way to a gig now, will post a lengthy answer to this tonight.
Jake

[jakenewmanbass]

Ok, loads of the suggestons so far are really sound, Bilbo, rslaing, and XB26354 are hitting nails on head imo. So I don't have a great deal more to add other than to re-iterate a few important essentials.

First and most important is: really learn to rely on the roots of the changes, they generally happen fast in be bop so a lot of the movement is taken care of simply by the passage of the chords. You should play through the tunes many times over just using roots and minims, where there is only one chord in a bar play the same root (or an octave) twice. Doing this will solidify the movement of the changes in your head.

Once you have done this for a few tunes (and I agree you're in at the deep end with the tunes mentioned) you should start to feel a sense of anticipation of what the (chord) movement is, this is when you can (mentally aurally) predict an upcoming sound, then you can start to look for those notes (and hopefully find and play them) that lend themselves to making those movements successful, then your discovery of closely related harmonic possibility comes into play. As mentioned you should start with very obvious notes, root, fifth, third surrounding semi tones (or side slips). As your pallette of available notes grows you should investigate the theoretical possibilities and try some of them out (cycling in fifths and chord and root substitutions and alterations, re-harmonising using established alternatives and eventually delving into altered harmony and the many scales that will get you through these changes)

Very important to remember that as a bassist you are anchoring the harmonic structure, as no matter what goes on above, it is only an (eg) F chord when you put an F at the bottom, this is actually quite a useful responsibility as it means you can go a very long way sticking to the core harmonic structure of a piece. Getting too 'interesting' too soon leads to a harmonic mess, unless you are very well crafted at relaying the changes via wider harmonic structure (think Dave Holland), however this concept is extremely advanced.
A great set of changes for this process is Rhythm Changes (I got Rhythm) the possibilities are endless. But in any tune it's imperative that you learn to listen to the harmonic movement being employed by the pianist (accompanist) and solo instrument as you should after time be able to follow the movements and various substitutions that they will use to make the process interesting.

A very important footnote....
A fundamentally critical element of this working well is how it feels..... My advice: get jaw droppingly good at minims and crochets, too much messing around rhythmically makes it sound like a mess. If you play with a swing feel right and really drive the band along you would never be criticised for your choices. If you mess around your whole playing will come under unfriendly scrutiny. I know some players that won't play four in a bar, and many people/players (often secretly) heavily criticise them for it.

Feel free to delve into my ramblings and expose badly explained passages and where possible I will expand and I'm sure some of the other contributors will be able to also.

Jake

Edited May 11, 2009 by jakesbass

[Bilbo]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='484714' date='May 11 2009, 12:08 AM']too much messing around rhythmically makes it sound like a mess.[/quote]

Jake's right, but here's the rub. When you get the harmonies involved deep into your head, AND when you are playing with great players who you KNOW you can trust AND who trust you, AND you are playing in a conducive environment, you can get into some really advanced rhytmic stuff and play excruciatingly complex cross rhythms, knowing that it will resolve organically when its completes its cycle. Its all about tension and release but you've got to be ready for it. THAT is why you study, so your s*** is really together when you need it to be.

The best thing to so in most situations, however, is as Jake says play straight four. I listen to a LOT of Paul Chambers (odd that...) and he hardly ever breaks things up like, say, Scott LaFaro or Dave Holland. When he swings he SWINGS....THAT was why he did 300+ lps in 13 years with the greatest players in the world (37 with Coltrane alone). Your job is to make the singer/frontline players sound good. Most rhythmic juggling doesn't do that and,if you over egg it, you won't get called back for more gigs.

[XB26354]

+1, at Basstech 15 years ago Paul Scott (a very fine electric and upright bass player) told us to play straight quarter notes and only allowed one deviation for every 5 years we'd been playing. It took me 10 years to realise what he was on about! Also playing "4" walking bass lines with just one plucking finger (usually index) helps to sound more even - try it on an electric bass - unless you have amazingly even technique it makes your lines bounce better. Finally do your practising with a metronome on beats 2 and 4 - swings much better!

[The Funk]

Guys, thanks a lot for all of this. Rhythmically, I was always planning on trying to do one thing: swing without any syncopation. I get to syncopate to my heart's content with all the funk stuff.

I'm going to keep having newbie questions so I thought I'll just post them as they come up.

While listening to some of the classic recordings of those three tunes, I can hear some of the band bringing in the changes slightly ahead of the bar when it should happen. Am I supposed to follow that or does that undermine what they're trying to do?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='XB26354' post='485463' date='May 11 2009, 11:54 PM']+1, at Basstech 15 years ago Paul Scott (a very fine electric and upright bass player) told us to play straight quarter notes and only allowed one deviation for every 5 years we'd been playing. It took me 10 years to realise what he was on about! Also playing "4" walking bass lines with just one plucking finger (usually index) helps to sound more even - try it on an electric bass - unless you have amazingly even technique it makes your lines bounce better. Finally do your practising with a metronome on beats 2 and 4 - swings much better! [/quote]
This ^^ is such good advice that I wouldn't change a word of it, and would endorse it unreservedly.