Bebop

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='485087' date='May 11 2009, 02:26 PM']Your job is to make the singer/frontline players sound good. Most rhythmic juggling doesn't do that and,if you over egg it, you won't get called back for more gigs.[/quote]

As is this ^^

[51m0n]

Sorry to butt in.

Just wanted to say what a great read this thread is.

I am unreservedly cr@p at jazz and walking of any kind. Its never been my 'thing', and frankly I dont see me ever doing a jazz gig. BUT I am so aware that its a real weakness in my playing and one that I dont really know how to solve.

Thanks for such a great set of simple instructions to get the basics of a walking line together.

When I get a chance I'm going to really try and get this stuff internalised, if only to this degree, such that I could at leaast get away with it if I ever get a jazzier set of changes, or a song that would benfit from some simple walking.

Thanks again for sharing.

[XB26354]

Stick with is 51m0n, I have to say that playing a walking line through changes and making it swing is one of the most satisfying experiences I've ever had with bass... believe it or not I was exposed to jazz and actually liked (some of) it before I even played any instruments (Dad played, amongst other things, classical violin, keyboards and jazz guitar), so liking it made learning it easier! BBC4 reran some episodes from Jazz 625 and in one of them Stan Getz was playing with his quartet at the LSE in London in (I think) 1959. My girlfriend and I just stopped what we were doing and listened - the music was simply stated, very melodic and just beautiful to listen to. I wasn't even thinking "is this jazz?" or "what is he playing?", so like any other style of music jazz does have the power to touch the listener, even if it isn't in the mainstream or played on commercial radio.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='The Funk' post='485818' date='May 12 2009, 12:26 PM']While listening to some of the classic recordings of those three tunes, I can hear some of the band bringing in the changes slightly ahead of the bar when it should happen. Am I supposed to follow that or does that undermine what they're trying to do?[/quote]

It is pretty rare for a pianist or guitar player to comp on the first beat of a bar; they do tend ot push to the beat by playing on the 4th swung off-beat (4 and). It helps push the tune alone, helps give it some momentum. The secret is for the bass player to stay on the beat and the drummer to accent the pusheed beat with the harmony instrument. The bass player can, on occasion, push too, creating a certain urgency to the groove, but this should not be overdone as it will get boring quickly.

[lowdown]

Even if you are not really thinking of playing Jazz / Bop..
Getting a [b]swing and bounce [/b]to your playing style really helps in all styles of music.
'It dont mean a thing......'
Does not just apply to Jazz.

Garry

Edited May 12, 2009 by lowdown

[urb]

[quote name='XB26354' post='485886' date='May 12 2009, 01:22 PM']Stick with is 51m0n, I have to say that playing a walking line through changes and making it swing is one of the most satisfying experiences I've ever had with bass... believe it or not I was exposed to jazz and actually liked (some of) it before I even played any instruments (Dad played, amongst other things, classical violin, keyboards and jazz guitar), so liking it made learning it easier! BBC4 reran some episodes from Jazz 625 and in one of them Stan Getz was playing with his quartet at the LSE in London in (I think) 1959. My girlfriend and I just stopped what we were doing and listened - the music was simply stated, very melodic and just beautiful to listen to. I wasn't even thinking "is this jazz?" or "what is he playing?", so like any other style of music jazz does have the power to touch the listener, even if it isn't in the mainstream or played on commercial radio.[/quote]

+1

There's loads and loads of great advice here - I'll simply add that I found both Band In A Box and the Jamey Abersold playalongs really useful as one of the hardest things with getting into jazz is the constantly cycling changes - a tune like Solar, or Scrapple The Apple, played at a fast tempo is very hard to maintain a constant, driving bass line for over ten minutes.

The good thing with BIAB is once you have programmed in the song/chord changes you can vary the tempo - so you can start slow and then get steadily faster - it's a great way to shed certain difficult sets of changes - you can stretch out and practice either basslines, solos or the melody. The Abersold ones are good too for giving you an authentic sounding backing track - but the tempos are fixed, so getting into stuff like Donna Lee etc (if you are just starting out) might seem a bit daunting.

The other small nugget I'll add is try and think ahead the whole time - always anticipate the next chord and keep your lines simple - let the soloists do all the fancy stuff!

[b]Hope that helps - the [url="http://www.jazzwise.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=753"]Charlie Parker playalong[/url] is really good
[/b]
Cheers

Mike

[dlloyd]

[quote name='urb' post='485924' date='May 12 2009, 01:58 PM']+1

There's loads and loads of great advice here - I'll simply add that I found both Band In A Box and the Jamey Abersold playalongs really useful as one of the hardest things with getting into jazz is the constantly cycling changes - a tune like Solar, or Scrapple The Apple, played at a fast tempo is very hard to maintain a constant, driving bass line for over ten minutes.

The good thing with BIAB is once you have programmed in the song/chord changes you can vary the tempo - so you can start slow and then get steadily faster - it's a great way to shed certain difficult sets of changes - you can stretch out and practice either basslines, solos or the melody. The Abersold ones are good too for giving you an authentic sounding backing track - but the tempos are fixed, so getting into stuff like Donna Lee etc (if you are just starting out) might seem a bit daunting.

The other small nugget I'll add is try and think ahead the whole time - always anticipate the next chord and keep your lines simple - let the soloists do all the fancy stuff!

[b]Hope that helps - the [url="http://www.jazzwise.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=753"]Charlie Parker playalong[/url] is really good
[/b][/quote]

+1

[b]The Funk:[/b] The Aebersold volume is the one I [i]mentioned[/i] in my PM.

One thing I've done in the past is to record the tracks onto Audacity and play about with them from there in order to slow them down to sensible tempos.

[lowdown]

[b]Funk[/b]

A site here might be worth a look..
MP3's and chord charts to a lot of tunes that are used.
Basic stuff really, but good for practising solos etc, and hearing changes.
And its a [b]free [/b]site...
[url="http://www.ralphpatt.com/Song.html"]http://www.ralphpatt.com/Song.html[/url]
[url="http://www.ralphpatt.com/Backing.html"]http://www.ralphpatt.com/Backing.html[/url]

Not as good as the Aebersold stuff...
But still helpful none the less.

Garry

[The Funk]

Thanks for all the advice, encouragement and support, folks!

It's been switched to next week which gives me a little more time to prepare. I'm nowhere near as nervous now.

[bassace]

There's a lot of good advice here so not much I can add. Just as a confidence builder, if you can play R&B, especially four to the bar, you'll be able to play simple BeBop. Just play a bit lighter but keep that pulse going along, ever so slightly in front of the middle of the beat. Bebop drummers usually use the kick drum only for emphasis rather than to bang out the rhythm (thank God) so you will be relied upon to keep the pulse while the drummer provides the ride. Keep it nice and simple, noone will criticise you for that. As a double bass player I'm judged on how I play, not what I play.

I know I bang on about Spotify but there's so much there. Listen to as much as you can. Paul Chambers, Ray Brown will be good starters.

Good luck, you'll not look back.

[jazzdrums]

Hehe, hey everyone.. I'm the aforementioned drummer and I've just noticed this and thought I'd just add a quick word incase anyone else has been put in a similar situation.

Sorry to have scared you a bit, we could of course choose easier tunes.. it's all good and just about playing music and jamming so that we can all improve. Most people are just happy to get out and play with anyone and everyone, and I'd much rather play drums in a musical context with a bass player even just holding the root notes for each chord than just sit at home practicing on my own. Anyone who dives into the deep end and arranges to jam a new and scary style of music deserves much respect, and most people spend way to long practicing on their own before getting the courage to get out there and jam. If we have to play the tunes at 50 bpm and with you holding root notes then that's absolutely fine by me, it's still music, we're still going to love playing those tunes in any way.. and you can never get good enough at the basics!

Most people are happy just to hear drummers play the swing pattern on the ride with the hi hat on 2 & 4... it doesn't matter how great you are at everything else, if you can't do that you're dead. Surely it's the same with bass players.. let's keep it simple and groovy.

Cheers guys.

ps. I challenge you infront of everyone on this forum to stick to the same tunes we arranged, and we can play them every week if you want and at any tempo until you've nailed them

[The Funk]

Sounds good to me.

[Hodge]

This has been such a useful thread.

I've never really gotten serious about studying jazz, but I've often heard stuff and thought "now that sounds like alot of fun.....but how the hell do they do it?"

I've found that as I get older the idea of jazz gets more and more appealing, but not knowing where to start, it's very daunting, especially if you know that your own knowledge of scales and general music theory is far from solid.

I've literally lost count of the number of "Aaaah!" moments these two pages have given me.

Can't wait to get home and have a play.

Thanks

[BottomEndian]

I'd forgotten about this thread. How'd it go, Funk?

[lowdown]

[quote name='BottomEndian' post='505355' date='Jun 4 2009, 11:19 AM']How'd it go, Funk?[/quote]

They aint finished yet.
You know how those bop solos go on for ever and ever....


Garry

[51m0n]

[quote name='lowdown' post='505488' date='Jun 4 2009, 02:32 PM']They aint finished yet.
You know how those bop solos go on for ever and ever....


Garry[/quote]


BWAHAHHAHHAHHHAAAAAAA!

[Bilbo]

[quote name='lowdown' post='505488' date='Jun 4 2009, 02:32 PM']They aint finished yet.
You know how those bop solos go on for ever and ever....


Garry[/quote]

Flippancy aside, that is actually not true. If you go back to the origins of be-bop, most Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker solos were one, two or, less common, a maximum of 3 choruses long. The epic solos of John Coltrane came much later in modal and free jazz both of which came out of be-bop but are not, in fact, the same thing.

Be-bop solos only sound long becasue most music nowadays doesn't contain any soloing as the industry has deemed any form of soloing to be 'self indulgent'. Unlike adolescent poetry about getting the elbow set to music which is, of course, art.

[51m0n]

True Bilbo, and very educational, but don't forget mate, "the drums must never stop....."

[jonny-lad]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='511338' date='Jun 11 2009, 03:49 PM']Flippancy aside, that is actually not true. If you go back to the origins of be-bop, most Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker solos were one, two or, less common, a maximum of 3 choruses long. The epic solos of John Coltrane came much later in modal and free jazz both of which came out of be-bop but are not, in fact, the same thing.

Be-bop solos only sound long becasue most music nowadays doesn't contain any soloing as the industry has deemed any form of soloing to be 'self indulgent'. Unlike adolescent poetry about getting the elbow set to music which is, of course, art. [/quote]

Weren't there certain limitations to how long a recording of a song could be due to limitations in the technology at the time?

Magnetic tape recording reached America in 1945, but it wasn't used by everyone until the 50s onwards. The Bebop recordings, like Charlie Parker's, tend to be quite short, suggesting that the new technology of tape recording, which had a capacity of 20mins, came a bit too late for bebop to benefit.

Bit before my time, but I'd expect to hear some longer solos live from the bebop players in those days than I would on a recording from that time. Still, I doubt they'd be anywhere near as long as some of the epic Coltrane solos!

I totally agree with your last statement about the music industry deeming soloing to be 'self-indulgent'...although I don't think that attitude is at the worst it has ever been.

I think it's also worth bearing in mind that Coltrane was interesting throughout his long solos (IMO), but alot of other musicians aren't, which i think is where the self-indulgence comes in, which I'm sure lots of us have been guilty of at one point or another!

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='482554' date='May 7 2009, 10:55 PM']It is best to think in terms of key centres rather then chords. The opening five chords of Scrapple, for instance, are all in the key of F major so, rather than thinking of each chord, you can approach it as a II V I in F major - one scale fits 5 chords. You go through the chart and look at sequences of chords in order to find the 'blocks' of chords in each key centre. When you look at these charts in this way, they become a bit less iintimidating (eventually )[/quote]
This is possibly the best advice so far in this thread. If you try to make every note theoretically correct, you will end up sounding wooden and cliched. Jazz (bebop) is at its best when the unexpected happens. As bilbo says, keep the key centres in mind and allude to any modulations along the way. This way the rest of the band know where they are and you can keep some basic structure in place. Its always best to learn the sequence by heart and then effectively forget it ! That sounds strange, I know, but believe me it works ! Just keep the broad outline of the key centres in mind and you will soar .....

The Major

[jazzdrums]

Hi - the jam didn't happen in the end unfortunately but hopefully others on this thread might be interested in jamming too? (We're based in London.) I've copied a bit that I've just put under the Bass Players Wanted section.. basically I'm getting as many people as possible who're into jazz together to start regular private jams:

"We've now got 24/7 access to a really good rehearsal studio and I'm looking for a pool of musicians to jam with - as many people as possible who play jazz with any instrument (more than one of each instrument). Basically I'm trying to get a community of people playing together during daytimes/evenings so that there's music happening every day.. this wouldn't mean that you'd have to play with us everyday, but would mean there are jams happening frequently so that you could come and have private jams with good musicians whenever suits you! A kind of "collective" if you like.

It's (in my opinion) better than jam sessions in bars, where you only generally get to play one or two tunes, whenever you're free and want to play we could play for as long as you wish!

Please PM me if interested"


The level of musicians we've already got is pretty variable - mostly intermediate/advanced jazz players upwards. Most of us play full time and practice jazz as our main focus, but the emphasis is all on fun and improvement so please don't be put off if you don't feel you're the best jazz player around.. infact, all the more reason to get jamming if you're not happy with you're playing. We just want to play music, all the time, there's definitely none of that "only playing with people better than you" attitude.

Cheers, Caz.

[2wheeler]

On a bit of a different tack from the responses above... With regard to the speed, there is only one bullet-proof approach that works for increasing speed, in just about any musical context:

1. Slow it down to get the accuracy/creativity.
2. Overspeed it to really stress test your lines.
3. Wind down to the true speed. If that didn't work, repeat.

[pegman1]

Listen to the original tracks or as many different versions on youtube.