There is much that we do not know

[Owen]

[Owen]

Apparently it is a thing!

 

 

[TeresaFR]

So, if I'm playing in that theoretical key, I'm playing what? E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, and D#? I don't think in flats when I already have other terminology that works just fine for the instrument I have - though I understand how to apply flats to bass*, it just complicates things and my autistic brain can't be doing with undue complexity.

 

*Do correct me if I'm wrong, that would genuinely be appreciated.

[Owen]

Yep. Fb AKA plain old E. I get that everything can be pushed to the Nth degree

..but..... really.....

[TeresaFR]

8 minutes ago, Owen said:

Yep. Fb AKA plain old E. I get that everything can be pushed to the Nth degree

..but..... really.....

Agreed, and what the hell is it with "double flat"? Really?! Really?!! That's surely just pretentious bull crap! Maybe it means something on an instrument built to take into account micro-tonal variations, but that doesn't seem to be a large pool at all.

[Mottlefeeder]

1 minute ago, TeresaFR said:

Agreed, and what the hell is it with "double flat"? Really?! Really?!! That's surely just pretentious bull crap! Maybe it means something on an instrument built to take into account micro-tonal variations, but that doesn't seem to be a large pool at all.

I think that the concept of a double flat comes from the need to use each note name once and once only in a scale in that key. So if you have already used the E (as an Eb), the next note up has to be an F something.

 

David

[DJpullchord]

Double flat is a whole tone innit? So the B becomes A? Maybe 🤔 

[Rodders]

A case of just because you can, doesn't mean you should? 

[ahpook]

Double flat ? That's a maisonette isn't it ?

Edited October 13, 2023 by ahpook

[TimR]

10 hours ago, TeresaFR said:

So, if I'm playing in that theoretical key, I'm playing what? E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, and D#? I don't think in flats when I already have other terminology that works just fine for the instrument I have - though I understand how to apply flats to bass*, it just complicates things and my autistic brain can't be doing with undue complexity.

 

*Do correct me if I'm wrong, that would genuinely be appreciated.

 

If you are playing a tyne in F major, the notes are.

F G A Bb C D E F

 

Not

F G A A# C D E F

 

When scoring the former you just put a b on the stave at the start on the B line and everyone knows to flatten the B everytime you play it.

 

In the latter case, you'd put no #s or bs on the stave and everytime you wanted to play an A# you'd have to add a # to that note. The peice would be extremely cluttered and horrendous to read.

 

So there's a reason to have bs, it's not pretentious bellshill. 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by TimR

[TimR]

10 hours ago, Mottlefeeder said:

I think that the concept of a double flat comes from the need to use each note name once and once only in a scale in that key. So if you have already used the E (as an Eb), the next note up has to be an F something.

 

David

 

You can't write it unless you have each note named individually. See my reply above. 

[TimR]

I think these odd keys are really used when transposing or modulating within a piece. 

 

If you're playing in a flat key and modulate to a key that would contain sharps it can be difficult to switch mid tune. 

[fretmeister]

You people need to get into a proper jazz band!  

 

This isn't new or weird. It follows the rules of music just as:

 

10 hours ago, Mottlefeeder said:

I think that the concept of a double flat comes from the need to use each note name once and once only in a scale in that key. So if you have already used the E (as an Eb), the next note up has to be an F something.

 

David

 

It's not pretentious bull crap at all - in fact it can make it a lot easier using each note name only once. Far less chance of a wrong note when sight reading.

 

[fretmeister]

8 minutes ago, TimR said:

I think these odd keys are really used when transposing or modulating within a piece. 

 

If you're playing in a flat key and modulate to a key that would contain sharps it can be difficult to switch mid tune. 

 

At this point I'd like to mention that Count Basie / Neil Hefti were genius, but I also regularly swear because of him...

 

And then again when some bandleader has attempted to re-arrange one of their tunes with the aim of making it easier and instead making it a complete fracking mess.

Edited October 13, 2023 by fretmeister

[Happy Jack]

So basically, because jazz.

[fretmeister]

26 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

So basically, because jazz.

 

I'm pretty sure there are a few double sharps in Moonlight Sonata, Bach used them too. Can't think of any Mozart off the top of my head, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

Think of it as spelling. They sound the same but the spellings are different.

 

Their / There / They're

Hear / Here

 

It is the spellings that give the proper meaning and let the other notes around them make sense and stick with the rules of never using the same note name as per Tim's example of F major. Having A in it twice BUT SOUNDING DIFFERENT because 1 is natural and the other a sharp is a nightmare. That's kind of the equivalent of using the word "here" but needing 2 ways of saying it: here and heeeaaarrrr perhaps.

 

12 hours ago, Owen said:

Yep. Fb AKA plain old E. I get that everything can be pushed to the Nth degree

..but..... really.....

 

 

The main point is that although Fb sounds like an E, it is not an E if the scale doesn't have an E natural in it.

 

Believe it or not, all these rules make it a lot easier to sight read. It allows clear commands that apply to everyone playing and removes the need for interpretation / thought for any note, and allows for a much cleaner manuscript.

 

I get the "WTF.....?????" reactions. I had that too when I started looking at this stuff. Then I joined a band that had 20% people playing transposing instruments in it. Without these rules playing along with Saxophones and clarinets (both transposing, but differently) would have lead to madness!

 

[jrixn1]

12 hours ago, TeresaFR said:

So, if I'm playing in that theoretical key, [...]

 

Well, you should nearly never actually find yourself playing in a theoretical key - that's why it's called theoretical.

 

Sometimes a piece changes key to the parallel minor, which means the root stays the same and you just switch from major to minor.  An example everyone will know is Norwegian Wood, when it moves from the verse (E major) to the bridge (E minor) at 0m32s: https://youtu.be/Y_V6y1ZCg_8?feature=shared&t=24

 

Now suppose your piece was instead in Db major; the equivalent change would be to Db minor.  However, as the screenshot in the original post of this thread shows, Db minor has six flats and one double flat, which is basically impossible to read.

 

So that is why Db minor is called a 'theoretical key' - strictly speaking it is technically correct, but nearly no one would ever use it.

 

Instead, i.e. in real life, a songwriter or composer (unless they are being a dіck) would be pragmatic and use the equivalent key signature - C# minor, which has four sharps and is a lot easier to read.  There is a beautiful example of this exact parallel minor change in Clair de Lune: https://youtu.be/FoD_AxKoJDs?feature=shared&t=107 and in that video you can follow along the sheet music and see where the key signature changes at 2m19s and 2m35s.

[fretmeister]

Wasn't it Strauss that wrote a movement in Ab Major with 8 sharps - just because he wanted to be a massive 'hole?  

[TeresaFR]

I'm rather glad I neither try to play jazz nor sight read, I'm fine doing my own thing and better off not getting involved in whatever's going on above.

[fretmeister]

17 minutes ago, TeresaFR said:

I'm rather glad I neither try to play jazz nor sight read, I'm fine doing my own thing and better off not getting involved in whatever's going on above.

 

 

I get that - but even at the simple end it really just allows for easier communication between band members. That's the entire point of the rules really - to give a common language for the musicians.

 

Anyone can go from zero to reading Grade 3 in a year by only giving it 10 mins a day. Little and often. None of that 3 hours on a Saturday crap. 10 mins a day. That's it.

[TheGreek]

LONG LIVE ROCK'N'ROLL!! 

[fretmeister]

I think it was on an outtake of the backstage stuff with Metallica with the SF orchestra that had one of the violinists talking to Hetfield.... 'How did you come up with the idea to go from that scale, to that scale but with that mode?'

 

To which the mighty Het responded... "I don't know what you are talking about. It just sounded cool."

 

 

[chris_b]

While it's obviously not mandatory, reading the dots and understanding the basics of musical theory is a good skill for a musician to have.

 

It's the difference between just talking and talking and reading and writing as well.

Edited October 13, 2023 by chris_b
bad grammar

[E sharp]

I’m going to see if I can be any more pretentious than ever, by renaming myself on here as Esharp sharp. 

That’ll learn ya…..

Edited October 13, 2023 by E sharp

[TimR]

Not knowing the difference between a Gb and an F# can really play havoc with band communication. 

 

I was once trying to teach a guitarist a tune and when I said play Gb he just looked at me blankly. That was in a heavy rock trio.