Gigs/Working with sound engineers /volume levels

[cdog]

So this weekend I went to an event across Leeds called live at Leeds. I went to 8 venues, saw 10 bands,and to my ears every venue,bar one, well done headrow house, had everything turned up to 11 to the extent that it was pretty much impossible for me to even be in the room, despite wearing pretty good quality earplugs. 

(Disclaimer is that I don't cope very well with extreme volume generally due to playing too much metal and techno in my teens. )

It seemed that sound engineers turned up the bass drum so loud that I could feel my cap shaking off my head and my trousers rattling when it was struck. This then boomed round the venue's space, making it impossible to make out any bass tones because the space was already filled. Possibly in response to this, every bass player I saw was using a pick, presumably to cut through. ( I was super surprised to see noone playing fingerstyle!). 

I'm about to start gigging and I really don't want to deafen people, or myself, at gigs, and I also want a deeper tone rather than a jb with bridge pu and pick tone. 

How do people tend to work with sound engineers to reign the levels in and get the unique sound you want for your band? Our drummer uses a cahon for bass drum and those cymbals with loads of holes in so the drums don't overpower us,  and I'd like our live sound to keep that balance, even with a bigger pa. 

Any why is everyone using picks?

Thanks

Chris

[cheddatom]

I've played so many gigs where I think it's too loud, but I've never felt able to ask the sound engineer to turn it all down. I have asked for them to turn down the on stage levels, but sometimes in a small venue, the FOH is so loud you don't even need stage monitors. The problem is, if you're telling the engineer it's all too loud, then you're basically telling them how to do their job, and they're going to hate that. I wonder how people without crippling British Politeness handle it

[PaulWarning]

we played the Butlins introductory stage a few years ago, the bands before us had a loud bass drum and a  bassy floor tom, before we went on I politely said to the soundman, we're old school can you go easy on the bass drum for us? we had a great sound as various phone footage confirmed, funnily enough all the bands after us sounded good too

[Dad3353]

If it's important to your sound, you'll need your own sound person. A generic sound person will do what he/she thinks is best for the occasion, taking into account many parameters. Some will have enough feeling, or experience, to do exactly what's required so that 'your' sound' comes across, but it can only be guaranteed if you bring your own. The band is responsible for the stage levels, the FOH person is responsible for the FOH sound. 'Bring your own' is the answer.
There's added benefits, as 'your' tech will know the repertoire, and can add or remove Fx such as delay or reverb etc 'on the fly'. Any use..? 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Dad3353

[Silvia Bluejay]

Being a brash southern European, I have no crippling British politeness whatsoever with fellow sound engineers, so when we play outdoor festivals I tend to befriend the poor sods, who have to deal with engineering 3/5/15 or however many different bands in a day, introduce myself as our band's sound engineer and offer to make suggestions for the finer details in the mix. This is usually well received, although my suggestions are not always actioned on.

 

However, I always assume that they know best about the overall volume level of the PA - in theory they should have tested and adapted the system to the intended location and radius - so I've never made suggestions about that. For indoor venues we have to assume, being in London and the Home Counties, that their settings will have been checked with/approved by the local council etc. for excessive noise, and I probably wouldn't choose to interfere with that either, even just to ask to turn down.

 

I'm quite surprised to read that your festivals appear to have free reign on volume levels indoors. If that's the case, I totally agree with you, it would cause me to walk out even when I'm wearing my earplugs. Bass and bass drum in a live setting indoors should not produce too much low frequency, as it reverberates and makes the sound horribly muddy. The lower the frequency, the longer the waves, which need bigger rooms to sound acceptable. No wonder the bass players are desperately trying to cut through.

The sound engineers should reduce the volume and gain, up the mids and low mids, use the HPF properly and give everybody a break. (That obviously goes for the other instruments, of course, with their particular frequencies.)

 

 

[Silvia Bluejay]

Just now, Dad3353 said:

If it's important to you sound, you'll need your own sound person. A generic sound person will do what he/she thinks is best for the occasion, taking into account many parameters. Some will have enough feeling, or experience, to do exactly what's required so that 'your' sound' comes across, but it can only be guaranteed if you bring your own. The band is responsible for the stage levels, the FOH person is responsible for the FOH sound. 'Bring your own' is the answer.
There's added benefits, as 'your' tech will know the repertoire, and can add or remove Fx such as del

You usually can't have your own sound engineer for your performance if it's an event organised by a pro team. They won't let you touch their equipment. We have done festival gigs with our own PA and in that case, yes, we sounded as good as ever because I already know what I'm doing.

[Doctor J]

Don't think of sound engineers in an "Us vs Them" context. You're all there to work together. You want your band to sound good and, guess what, so do they.

 

Introduce yourself, be pleasant and give them some idea of what you think your band ought to sound like. If you don't they have to guess. Don't tell them how to do their job and they won't have reason to dislike you but, also, don't be shy about telling them what you're looking for, politely, of course. You'll be amazed how receptive people can be when they're engaged in a two-way dialogue about how you all can work together to achieve the best results with a minimum of angst.

[Lozz196]

It`s worth going wireless, standing out front when a song is going on and then when it`s stopped asking the soundperson what the words were on the chorus. If they can`t answer ask them to turn the backline down until the words can be understood. Often it`s the vocals that suffer in the inane attempt to have the worlds largest sounding kick drum and the then desperate attempts to match the backline to it. Getting soundpeoples to acknowledge that the words are important can result in a quieter gig. 

[NHM]

On the pick question...

I prefer to play (most songs) with fingers, but the band asks me to play (most songs) with a pick. They say the extra attack helps them hear me more distinctly and keeps the overall sound tight. (Only vocals and the kick drum go through the PA unless we are playing at festivals). I instinctively prefer the sound (and feel) of finger playing but tend to agree with the band that, when listening back to live recordings, most songs sound better with pick playing .

[PaulWarning]

2 minutes ago, NHM said:

On the pick question...

I prefer to play (most songs) with fingers, but the band asks me to play (most songs) with a pick. They say the extra attack helps them hear me more distinctly and keeps the overall sound tight. (Only vocals and the kick drum go through the PA unless we are playing at festivals). I instinctively prefer the sound (and feel) of finger playing but tend to agree with the band that, when listening back to live recordings, most songs sound better with pick playing .

I play with a pick, I think a pick players nearly always cut through better live

[GreyBeard]

Being 73 years old and playing since 1968 using a sound engineer for anything other than a really large venue is just overkill.  We use a pr of Yamaha pa speakers and matching monitors with a powered pa head.  We don't mic much of anything other than the vocals.  If we have a large venue to play we hire a sound company that we trust.  We play as much as we want and we control our volume.  I have worked clubs that have their own sound and I have been at the mercy of tone deaf FOH technicians.  When music is played at ear splitting levels it becomes NOISE and the listeners are too dumb to know any better.  (jmho)

[Silvia Bluejay]

3 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

I play with a pick, I think a pick players nearly always cut through better live

True, but playing fingerstyle should not mean you sound muddy or don't cut through. It's all down to the sound engineer.

[PaulWarning]

Just now, Silvia Bluejay said:

True, but playing fingerstyle should not mean you sound muddy or don't cut through. It's all down to the sound engineer.

yes that's the problem 😀

[BigRedX]

One of the great things about playing post-punk influenced music. The bass is usually the melodic instrument and therefore can't be reduced to a muddy mess. And most of the sound engineers doing gigs in the genre seem to have realised this.

[BassAdder60]

24 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

I play with a pick, I think a pick players nearly always cut through better live

Likewise I’m a converted pick player and find it’s easier getting an acceptable clear tone with a pick instead of fingerstyle 

Since going all valve I really notice the difference an amp makes too. 
We ( singer and I ) are wireless and both help with sound checks yet there are times it’s still not right, mostly vocals need to come up 

[GreyBeard]

1 hour ago, PaulWarning said:

I play with a pick, I think a pick players nearly always cut through better live

Playing with a pick is the answer to playing through FOH especially with a p-bass.  Another solution is my old MM SR5 with a ceramic pickup in series.  It has enough growl to cut through a marching band.

Edited October 17, 2023 by GreyBeard
correct error

[Acebassmusic]

3 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

 Often it`s the vocals that suffer in the inane attempt to have the worlds largest sounding kick drum and the then desperate attempts to match the backline to it.

 

1 hour ago, GreyBeard said:

When music is played at ear splitting levels it becomes NOISE .....

 

1 hour ago, BassAdder60 said:

We ( singer and I ) are wireless and both help with sound checks yet there are times it’s still not right, mostly vocals need to come up 

 

Yes, yes and "yes...sort of"! 🤣

 

I've lost count of the number of great bands I've seen that you can't hear the vocals very well and in a number of cases I mean "can't hear the vocals AT ALL!" As @Lozz196 says it's usually due to kick drum canon syndrome that everything else then tries to match.

 

@GreyBeard makes a great point. To me when I'm at a gig where the volume is too loud for the venue space, the sound seems to distort and become unpleasant.

 

@BassAdder60 Many bands & engineers seem to have the ethos of "if you can't hear it......turn it up" Well, shock horror, news flash, volume knobs work 2 ways up AND DOWN! 🤯 If you can't hear the vocal turn everything else down a bit. I have tried this approach with my band but has fallen on deaf ears....literally. This applies to all instruments. When I go to a gig and theres an instrument on stage that I consistently can't hear then to me the mix is wrong.

 

I may be in the minority but I'd rather see a band thats got a great sound and not simply a loud sound. I suppose with the advent of cheap watts its much easier to twist a knob and be loud than put some work into learning about sound 🤷‍♂️

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Acebassmusic

[Dan Dare]

Many engineers tend to be one or more of the following:

 

1) Jaded. Understandable in a way. They've spent their lives schlepping gear and probably working long hours for relatively little pay and/or thanks, so their hearts aren't in it. Befriend one of these, buy them a pint, explain what you want and they'll usually try their best for you.

2) Gear heads. Little chance with one of these. They want to show the world how those subs can rattle the foundations and those horns can slice your head off. They frequently have extensive technical knowledge, but Van Gogh's ear for music. In their free time, they listen exclusively to horrible electronic music, not because they like it but because it tests the limits of their sound systems. Ask them to mic' up an acoustic instrument properly and they haven't a clue.

3) Think they know best. A close relative of the gear head and equally little chance of getting what you want from them.

4) Deaf. 30 years of monitoring on loud cans and blasting audiences' ears off have wreaked havoc with their hearing. Again, little chance of a result. They just can't hear well enough, especially if they're getting on in years and have lost the ability to discern frequency extremes.

5) Resentful/frustrated musicians. "That could have been me playing, you know. Kids these days don't know what good music is", etc. Lost cause.

6) Not too bright. Any combination of the above.

 

The remainder aren't too bad generally.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Dan Dare

[Buddster]

Just don't turn up with the attitude that the engineer fits one of the above. 

The same list can be applied to musicians 

[gjones]

A couple of weeks ago I went to see a rock band in Glasgow called the Winery Dogs. It's not the kind of gig I would normally go to but it was a free ticket from the drummer in my band, so I said what the heck and went along.

 

They are only a three piece band, and they weren't that loud but the sound engineer was pretty awful and managed to make them sound like a woolly, mushy, indistinct mess, with inaudible vocals.

 

The band all used IEM so the the mix probably sounded awesome in their earplugs.

[PaulWarning]

23 minutes ago, gjones said:

A couple of weeks ago I went to see a rock band in Glasgow called the Winery Dogs. It's not the kind of gig I would normally go to but it was a free ticket from the drummer in my band, so I said what the heck and went along.

 

They are only a three piece band, and they weren't that loud but the sound engineer was pretty awful and managed to make them sound like a woolly, mushy, indistinct mess, with inaudible vocals.

 

The band all used IEM so the the mix probably sounded awesome in their earplugs.

Not saying this was the case, but sometimes bands sound like an inaudible mess because they are 😆

[gjones]

40 minutes ago, PaulWarning said:

Not saying this was the case, but sometimes bands sound like an inaudible mess because they are 😆

I was just watching a video of Billy Sheehan (the bass player in The Winery Dogs) giving a rundown of his rig. He says the rig is not very loud onstage because he monitors his bass via in ear monitors. So it appears he wasn't the one responsible for the rotten sound. I was there with a drummer who said the band's drummer, Mike Portnoy, is not a heavy hitter and Richie Kotzen who played guitar and sings, was also wearing in ear monitors, so didn't need his amp particularly loud in order to hear it.

 

The sound engineer is starting to look, more and more like the guilty party.

[jimmyb625]

2 hours ago, gjones said:

I was just watching a video of Billy Sheehan (the bass player in The Winery Dogs) giving a rundown of his rig. He says the rig is not very loud onstage because he monitors his bass via in ear monitors. So it appears he wasn't the one responsible for the rotten sound. I was there with a drummer who said the band's drummer, Mike Portnoy, is not a heavy hitter and Richie Kotzen who played guitar and sings, was also wearing in ear monitors, so didn't need his amp particularly loud in order to hear it.

 

The sound engineer is starting to look, more and more like the guilty party.

But, it's likely the sound engineer is touring with the band, so they probably like what it is they're doing.

[Leonard Smalls]

I can't cope with more than about 30 seconds of even just acoustic drums without my plugs... So I always wear 'em!

And bands are still often far too loud.

Frinstance, at Rebellion back in August the Introducing Stage is in a large auditorium that's well know for sounding bad - loads of hard parallel reflective surfaces etc. And the soundmixer's solution? To turn it up so loud that it's painful, even with plugs. While lots of damping might not be possible, turning it up is bound to make the situation worse!

In contrast, last week we played a small pub in Birmingham which had a capacity of at very most, 150. I was a bit worried because even in this small room, everything was mic-ed up and DI-ed. However, the sound was great - crystal clear, with thwacky bass drum, audible bass and vox and still not too loud, though still rockin'. I could even take my plugs out for a minute or so without pain, which was nice!

[TimR]

On 17/10/2023 at 14:54, cdog said:

How do people tend to work with sound engineers to reign the levels in and get the unique sound you want for your band? Our drummer uses a cahon for bass drum and those cymbals with loads of holes in so the drums don't overpower us,  and I'd like our live sound to keep that balance, even with a bigger pa.

 

 

I don't. It's the sound engineers job to reproduce what you sound like on stage. 

 

As per another thread, your band needs to keep their onstage volumes down to start with. That gives the engineer something to work with. 

 

The only thing I ask for is a bit more/less  (bass, guitar, vocal etc) in my monitor to suit.

 

The only time I've ever spoken to an engineer while a band was playing was to tell him he'd lost his bass guitar feed. He shrugged and pointed to the chanel fader and so I told him to PFL the chanel in his cans. After which he sent his assistant rushing off to the stage to work out what had happened to the cable. 😆

 

You can't determine the quality of the sound engineer, often they are just engineers, not producers.