AI Mixing

[Owen]

I know I should do it myself. I know that I will be missing elements. I know it is a compromise. And yet, I find myself wondering if this is an option yet? I do not have the correct acoustics to do a mix well. I also do not have the experience. All my delays/pans etc are there but I have no idea about bussing the drums and then putting a compressor across the buss etc. EQ is great but I know that given a chance I would wallow in a bath of Low-Mid for ever and that is not great. Have we reached a stage where we can plug something in and get 90% of the way there? I am busy bouncing something out to send to my mate to do (for money). I am happy to pay him, but am just wondering if the tech exists for me to sit there and go through a list of options until I find something which will do just fine?

[fretmeister]

I would love this very much!

 

I don't record nearly as much as I would like to because I tend to abandon a tune during mixing as it becomes so much hassle. I really don't enjoy mixing.

It's probably one of the reasons that I like to write for power trio type arrangements!

[Dad3353]

36 minutes ago, Owen said:

... am just wondering if the tech exists for me to sit there and go through a list of options until I find something which will do just fine?

 

You don't say what system you're using for recording (which DAW, on which OS..?), but there are many packages and plug-ins that can take a rough set of stems and shake 'em into something decent, with a drop-down menu of options to listen to. Have a look at what Izotope Ozone offers, here, to get an idea. Does this help..? 

[Owen]

Thanks, I will have a look at that.

 

I am on Logic.

[Dad3353]

4 minutes ago, Owen said:

...I am on Logic.

 

I did a quick Google of 'mixing/mastering for Logic', and tons of stuff came up, so a read-through of some of those links might be fruitful, too..? As for acoustics : I do 95% with headphones (a decent enough pair of Superlux HD669; nothing special and not expensive at all...), with a liten through at the end on my domestic hifi (no need for bass traps, sound treatment, baffles et al for home-brewed stuff, usually...). Obviously, if the project is worth it, and one's ears are 'tuned in' a bit better, a complete studio-type set-up can gild the lily, but cloth ears won't benefit from Abbey Road, so starting out modestly is the way forward. It's really not that difficult, once a few basic notions have been sorted out. One tip I can offer (being, myself, a half-deaf, old-school, cloth-eared, old retiree...) is to use reference material, and compare one's own compositions and mixes with other, 'pro' tracks that have the same 'vibe' as that aimed for. Not to copy, technically, what's going on, but to eliminate, as best as one can, the divergence of means available to the pro studios and one's own. Does the reference track have clear, bright vocals..? Does your own track have that same 'shimmer'..? Play around with the treatment that one has, trying to get closer to that reference. There are web sites that have available stem tracks to mix oneself, to see what different drums sound like, or mixing a brass ensemble. From time to time, listen to one's work in mono, as that can show up a few 'hidden' issues. Here's a link to the Cambridge Music Technology stuff, which is excellent.

[Newfoundfreedom]

I'm not sure about mixing. But I use AI mastering and it does a pretty decent job. 

[Owen]

I am on a deeply tedious train journey so have spent some time digging into the mixing/mastering for Logic. There is a lot on Mastering but what I am looking for is some magic programme which will take my stems and churn out a useable mix. A bit like Photoshop will edit/import/enhance pictures with the "idiot proof" presets. I am open to the fact that this does not exist and is a job for a grown up.

 

As it happens I already own Isotope, bought in a fit of discounted plug-in excitement. I am that shallow. 

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, Owen said:

I am on a deeply tedious train journey so have spent some time digging into the mixing/mastering for Logic. There is a lot on Mastering but what I am looking for is some magic programme which will take my stems and churn out a useable mix. A bit like Photoshop will edit/import/enhance pictures with the "idiot proof" presets. I am open to the fact that this does not exist and is a job for a grown up.

 

As it happens I already own Isotope, bought in a fit of discounted plug-in excitement. I am that shallow. 

 

Have you a sample project that we could look at, and maybe suggest how to attack this..? I use Reaper, but there are others here with Logic that could surely help out and give an opinion..?

Here's a link explaining how to export to WAV files, that Reaper can use. Worth a shot..? 

 

Logic Pro and Logic Express 9: How to export multiple stems ...

[Owen]

Thanks D3353. I am familiar with the whole process and if I had the time could probably sit down and hash my way through it. I was wondering if anyone had any experience of using something like this or whether we had just not reached there yet

 

https://www.unchainedmusic.io/aimixing

 

?

[Owen]

Here they are discussing the same question on SOS https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=87903

[BabyBlueSound]

I am by no means a pro mixer, but a guy working in a recording studio told me some rules of thumb I can easily work with as an amateur.

 

DON'T OVERTHINK IT.

- EQ out unwanted buzzing and timber with the help of doing some frequency sweeps

- Fine tune your EQ for every instru track to make sure the dominant frequencies do not overlap too much, and make sure you LIKE THEM

- Slight panning as per standards

- Add only few plugins: Compressor, limiter, don't play around too much, use presets. Consider a mild reverb.

- And a final EQ for the whole thing as master where you HPF the sub bass and maybe LPF some very high freq hiss off, and adjust the final sound to your liking

- Let your ears rest, do one more round adjustments the next day after relistening

- Force yourself not to be a maximalist and move on to your next tune after spending X amount of time on something (I could easily spend mixing 5 days looking for that perfect sound I will never find. Not a good idea)

 

I find my amateur sound better than some other Youtube amateurs, and the above only takes an hour or so once you have the workflow, definitely less than doing a proper recording!

 

I tried AI mastering instead and it always sounded like boxy cardboard crap coming from an iphone speaker, even compared to my Poundland mixing, even when I provided bright classic hard rock songs as mastering references.

 

In the end, my recordings are alright. They're not perfect by any means but on my level it works, and when compared to the raw render, the end result is definitely cleaner, better, punchier. I feel like I'd be kidding myself if I was trying to do anything more.

Edited November 2, 2023 by BabyBlueSound

[Owen]

The "don't overthink it" is solid advice (as is the rest). I was messing with my latest thing before sending off stems to my mate and realised that I have always avoided using preset EQ/tone etc in Logic because it is not "real". If I have not done the work myself then I am clearly cheating. But then using AI to the same ends sits in the same definition. So for the next one I will stick presets all over it and own it like a boss!

 

But having a forum to air ideas and discuss stuff is great. I am hugely opinionated about Double Bass stuff, but less so about recording. I have always just turned up, played and left. So thanks y'all for nurturing me through this. The world will be changed when I release my work to rapturous acclaim. Maybe.

 

[BabyBlueSound]

The only thing I forgot to actually mention is the AI I tried: https://moises.ai/ . Give it a go, if you hate mixing, it might work for you!

 

I sort of enjoy noodling around with plugins and EQs a bit and trying to find that perfect growl that never comes, so it's obviously a bit different for me. But I could not do this for a living, oh no.

[BigRedX]

16 hours ago, Owen said:

The "don't overthink it" is solid advice (as is the rest). I was messing with my latest thing before sending off stems to my mate and realised that I have always avoided using preset EQ/tone etc in Logic because it is not "real". If I have not done the work myself then I am clearly cheating. But then using AI to the same ends sits in the same definition. So for the next one I will stick presets all over it and own it like a boss!

 

But having a forum to air ideas and discuss stuff is great. I am hugely opinionated about Double Bass stuff, but less so about recording. I have always just turned up, played and left. So thanks y'all for nurturing me through this. The world will be changed when I release my work to rapturous acclaim. Maybe.

 

Nothing wrong with using the presets for Logic's plug-in effects. Some very good sound engineers have spent quite a bit of time coming up with them so they are all great starting points for a slight tweak to get the sound you want. Also don't be afraid to try presets that aren't necessarily designed for the instrument you want to apply it to. The worst that can happen is that you won't like the sound.

 

However, having owned a very comprehensive home studio in the 90s and early 2000s, these days I get someone else to mix and master my music. As I've said before with the money I spent trying to do it all myself I could have hired and excellent studio and producer for a month and got a great finished album out of it with cash left over to press and promote it rather than a handful of "finished" tracks that I've never been 100% happy with and a bunch of stems that will never be listened to again.

[SH73]

I personally think it sucks life out of fun. When I record my own song , I'd like it to sound certain way depends what mood I am in. I don't think it will match human's emotions and art of mixing.I sometimes use master match, but it is still not close enough.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by SH73
Ammended as did not make sense

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, SH73 said:

I personally think it sucks life out of fun. When I record my own song , I'd like it to sound certain way depends what mood I am in. It's ok if you don't for the living then use the last 10@% for final touches and mastering. I sometimes use master match, but it is still not close.

 

But are you as good an engineer as you a musician and/or songwriter?

 

I know I'm not, which is why the only part of the recording process I take part in these days is the tracking and the final mix decisions. Everything else is handed off to people with better skills than me. Right now AI is slightly worse than what I could do myself, which means it's not really suitable for what I want, but I'm sure within the next 5 years it will be doing a much, much better job.

[fretmeister]

11 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

But are you as good an engineer as you a musician and/or songwriter?

 

 

 

 

I am equally talented at those things.

 

😬

[SH73]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

But are you as good an engineer as you a musician and/or songwriter?

 

I know I'm not, which is why the only part of the recording process I take part in these days is the tracking and the final mix decisions. Everything else is handed off to people with better skills than me. Right now AI is slightly worse than what I could do myself, which means it's not really suitable for what I want, but I'm sure within the next 5 years it will be doing a much, much better job.

For what I do, does the job. The mixing quality also depends on your hearing and how you perceive what you hear , it will reflect the final outcome. I thought Ozone does a good job for mastering. I think it's used by some BC. I rely on my hearing 

Edited November 3, 2023 by SH73
.

[funkgod]

owen, try this its a stand alone system, you dont have to connect it to any daw, just chuck your mp3, or better a wav file in to it, then pick a style from a big list, and let it do its stuff while you sit back and have a brew.

one thing... put your original file in its own folder on your desk top then do it, then all the stuff it does will be saved to the same file.

its free for doing files for up to 3 and a half mins or 4, or something like that, and will only use 4 multiband compressors, but good enough to give you an idea,

plus its got some VERY handy tools you can use.

try it if you like, ya good to go, if not its cost you nothing.

i know people who are charging using this as a mastering service.

cheeky buggers

enjoy

 

https://www.curioza.com/index.php/audio-mastering

Edited December 24, 2023 by funkgod

[Owen]

Thanks very much. I shall try it. I have farmed 2 tracks out to grown ups and will attempt one myself when I get it back from the trombonist. Of course, then I have to actually do something with them!

[chrkelly]

What's the music, instrumentation? What do you want it to sound like? 

 

For the AI aspect how about something like Sonible Smart eq? I've not used it myself though.

 

I like to keep things pretty simple, I only do jazz & classical - After checking all the phase, panning etc, I use mainly subtractive eq (if you can't hear something, it's usually because something else is masking it. Find the offending frequencies in the competing instrument & dip it slightly). The same with volumes, usually turn down, not up. Mainly wide EQ curves & usually never more than 3-4db max, I quite often find myself working in 0.25db increments. Don't solo channels often, there's usually little point eq'ing something when it's outside the mix. I usually record instruments in the same space so have to take into account the mic spill too. A good analyser will help you see what's going on. I don't compress unless it's for colour. I can keep volumes in check by fader riding, it sounds way more dynamic that way. I have a Varimu in the rack for mastering but it's usually for colour, set so the needles are barely moving. Reverb is your friend, learn how to use it properly.

 

If your room is crap, I'd highly recommend some quality open back headphones combined with a good crossfeed plugin like Aspen Virtuoso. You'll make better decisions without your room acoustics fighting you. Always have a reference track loaded up to check with. Your ears become accustomed to small changes very quickly so have many many tea breaks to reset your ears!

 

 

[WinterMute]

I try these things as they arrive and, whilst they are getting better, they really can't match the work of even the most basically competent mix/mastering engineer. Even the Nugen mastering suite templates are rubbish.

 

If you have no-one available you can turn to or you just can't afford to pay a professional/decent amateur, then maybe, but a little persistence and a little guidance can produce results that are objectively better than AI mix templates IMO. 

 

This may not always be the case, I think there's probably going to be a point where running your tracks through an AI mix device will produce serviceable work, but it's not there yet.

[Baloney Balderdash]

Unless you are doing very traditional generic songs with very generic instrumentation I can only imagine that AI mixing would be useless.

 

I know for certain it would for the music I make.

 

Take the time and learn how to do so yourself.

 

Unless your songs are indeed very traditional and generic it will almost with certainty give a better result, even if you are mostly clueless about mixing, as long as you have ears and use them and are not afraid of experimenting.  

[thebrig]

On 21/12/2023 at 22:31, funkgod said:

owen, try this its a stand alone system, you dont have to connect it to any daw, just chuck your mp3, or better a wav file in to it, then pick a style from a big list, and let it do its stuff while you sit back and have a brew.

one thing... put your original file in its own folder on your desk top then do it, then all the stuff it does will be saved to the same file.

its free for doing files for up to 3 and a half mins or 4, or something like that, and will only use 4 multiband compressors, but good enough to give you an idea,

plus its got some VERY handy tools you can use.

try it if you like, ya good to go, if not its cost you nothing.

i know people who are charging using this as a mastering service.

cheeky buggers

enjoy

 

https://www.curioza.com/index.php/audio-mastering

I mess around with home recording purely for fun on my Mac and would have been very interested in trying this, but unfortunately, it's Windows based only.😒

[funkgod]

On 03/01/2024 at 07:37, thebrig said:

I mess around with home recording purely for fun on my Mac and would have been very interested in trying this, but unfortunately, it's Windows based only.😒

 

 

ahhh buggernutz, sorry i did not know that, being a windows user,

the only thing apple i have in the studio is an

Imac 27" that is running windows 7 as its os, and runs fantastically would you believe,

i use it to run all my software synths, which it does a great job with no probs whatso ever.

if it broke today i would get another old imac to replace it. you can get them now for £50

a great tool to have just for that job.

 

For anyone looking to get a cheap machine to run say an older version of cubase or like me all your software synths, to use as a stand alone system just to do a specific job these old imacs are a very good option over a lap top due to allot of reasons, size of screen for one and the speed of them, you can get windows 7 on them quite easy, youtube is your friend here, just look for the ones with the dvd/cd drive on the right hand side of the screen otherwise its a real pain loading windows in using an external drive ! again youtube is your friend here as well, if you want more info just shout.