Would Full Neck Pocket Credit Card Shim Kill Tone and Sustain?

[Baloney Balderdash]

A while ago I couldn't get the saddles low enough for proper action unless basically sitting on the base plate without any grub screws to support them, so in usual haphazardly way I fitted an old credit card in the neck pocket to shim it.

 

Now it sits pretty much perfectly, the action is great all along the neck, and as a bonus at the desired action the grub screws are more or less flush with the saddles, making resting on it and palm muting pleasant and easy.

 

But, while I can't really complain about the tone of said bass, I came to think if perhaps the hard plastic sitting in between the neck and body in the neck pocket perhaps could have a bad influence on tone and sustain anyway, and that I perhaps would be better off replacing it for a hardwood or metal plate of the same thickness?

 

Now I have experimented unplugged with pressing the headstock against a wooden table to amplify the bass acoustically, then do the same, but with a credit card between the headstock and the table, but without any audible deterioration of neither acoustic tone or sustain.

 

Now that experiment seems to suggest that there is probably nothing to worry about, but what does people here say?

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[PaulThePlug]

I'd go wood... softer than the body and neck... more of a compression deform 'Gasket' rather than a harder wood or plastic that would be more 'Spacer'... Also don't like or see the need for the plastic shield on a neck plate.

Edited October 30, 2023 by PaulThePlug

[Baloney Balderdash]

17 minutes ago, PaulThePlug said:

I'd go wood... softer than the body and neck... more of a compression deform 'Gasket' rather than a harder wood or plastic that would be more 'Spacer'... Also don't like or see the need for the plastic shield on a neck plate.

What? 

 

Your reply doesn't really answer my actual question at all.

 

And I am pretty certain you have misunderstood what I wrote in my OP, try reading it again.

 

The whole point with this shim to start with is that it is supposed to be a spacer, raising the neck to get more sensible action adjustment at the bridge, and it got absolutely nothing to do with the neck plate, there isn't even one on this bass, the shim sits in the neck pocket between the bottom of pocket and neck.

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Waddo Soqable]

Your experiment has established that it doesn't have any adverse effects at all, so I'd take the win and leave it alone as you've achieved what you set out to perfectly by the sounds of it.. 

[PaulThePlug]

51 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

...I am pretty certain you have misunderstood what I wrote in my OP, try reading it again.

...nah... i think i'll leave it... i was in two minds about replying as it was...

Edited October 30, 2023 by PaulThePlug

[Baloney Balderdash]

10 minutes ago, PaulThePlug said:

...nah... i think i'll leave it... i was in two minds about replying as it was...

What the... 

[Baloney Balderdash]

11 hours ago, Waddo Soqable said:

Your experiment has established that it doesn't have any adverse effects at all, so I'd take the win and leave it alone as you've achieved what you set out to perfectly by the sounds of it.. 

Well, thing is that it seemingly works, but had I thought it through better and not just found an immediate haphazard solution like this, and I was doing it now, I would definitely had gone for a wood shim instead.

 

I also don't think that my acoustic experiment really conclude anything with certainty, as a table pressed against the headstock doesn't exactly amplifies much.

 

As said it seemingly seems, seemingly and seems being the keywords here, to work just fine, but do people who actually know something about this find it likely that the plastic might very well have a negative influence and that replacing it for something else likely would bring an improvement?

 

Put it simpler, disregarding everything else, basically what I really want to know is, does a thin layer of hard plastic, like that of a credit card dampen vibrations?

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Supernaut]

Maybe turn up the gain on the EHX BLACK FINGER. 

[Bassybert]

12 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Now I have experimented unplugged with pressing the headstock against a wooden table to amplify the bass acoustically, then do the same, but with a credit card between the headstock and the table, but without any audible deterioration of neither acoustic tone or sustain.

You’ve pretty much answered your own question 😊

 

I’ve done similar and didn’t notice anything different either, well not to my ears or fingers and that was fine with me. 
 

Who knows, maybe there’s a 0.1% difference but if it sounds good enough then it’s good enough!

Edited October 31, 2023 by Bassybert

[Baloney Balderdash]

34 minutes ago, Supernaut said:

Maybe turn up the gain on the EHX BLACK FINGER. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Henrythe8]

I assembled a bass with a Lefty Harley Benton PB50 body and a Right hended Squire Mike DIrnt neck. The Squier neck was thinner thant the HB, so I had a plastic spacer 3D printed so it fits the neck pocket and add a 0.5° angle to adjust. 
I did see a huge improvement in terms of sound despite the spacer being plastic. Of course it allowed a perfect setup of the bass and no more rattles despite the saddles being floored. 
There's also a company selling an improved neck plate to get a better tone, so I guess that tone is in the hear of the beholder 🙂 

[chris_b]

Did you actually use a credit card? Maybe the spaces caused by the printing would have an effect?

 

I would prefer to use a solid piece of plastic and cut it to the size of the contact patch between the body and neck. As long as the join is as tight as you can make it, I can't see why a shim would not be OK.

[Baloney Balderdash]

On 31/10/2023 at 12:25, chris_b said:

Did you actually use a credit card? Maybe the spaces caused by the printing would have an effect?

 

I would prefer to use a solid piece of plastic and cut it to the size of the contact patch between the body and neck. As long as the join is as tight as you can make it, I can't see why a shim would not be OK.

Well, I didn't use an actual credit card, but a traveling card for public transport, which though is the exact same material and has the exact same dimensions as a credit card, but without any recessed/risen letters or signs, so similar to a credit card in every other aspect except but for its surface being completely plane.

 

And yes, very tight neck joint.

 

Good point though.

 

And thanks for you input, guess I should be good then. 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

I've never heard a difference in tone or sustain from fitting a shim, however whenever I shim a bass I always use a thin piece of card in the bridge end of the neck pocket. This will increase the angle of the neck rather than just raise it. A thin shim applied like this will have as much impact on the height of the string at the bridge as a much thicker full pocket spacer like a credit card.

[Baloney Balderdash]

22 minutes ago, Jean-Luc Pickguard said:

I've never heard a difference in tone or sustain from fitting a shim, however whenever I shim a bass I always use a thin piece of card in the bridge end of the neck pocket. This will increase the angle of the neck rather than just raise it. A thin shim applied like this will have as much impact on the height of the string at the bridge as a much thicker full pocket spacer like a credit card.

Yes, and I do know for a fact that some manufactures will correct neck angle this way as well, even sometimes just using whatever is at hand, for example a piece of folded sandpaper.

 

But I didn't want to change the neck angle, actually it is pretty minimal as it is, and I prefer it this way.

 

Also if it does have any effect on the tone, for what it is worth the contact area between the neck and neck pocket will be greater with a full shim (you can actually buy slightly angled full shims as well, or even make your own if you know how to).

 

All in all though it seems like the consensus is that it is unlikely to have any negative effect on tone or sustain, which was what I was looking for getting resolved.

 

Thanks to everyone who came with their genuine input to this matter so far. 

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[NancyJohnson]

Seriously now, it honestly makes zero difference what a shim is made of.  I've shimmed basses a few times (before I knew how to set up a bass properly) and have used a playing card, breakfast cereal box, perspex, old credit card etc.

 

There's this perceived thing about sustain.  Let's address this first.  How long do you let your notes ring out for?  Ten seconds?  20?  For the love of god, forget about sustain.  I have no idea what music you play, but if you're doing anything where your tempo is less than say two beats a minute, you're not going to notice anything, if at all.  

 

Tone.  Ack.  Are you a solo bass player, treading the boards alone?  Probably not.  Any (perceived) change of tone from your choice of shim material will be net zero; you'll want to hear something and will convince yourself things are different, but they won't be.  If you're in a band, any (perceived) nuances in tone will be lost completely.  If you're playing live, seriously, nobody in the audience cares about your hardwood shim or whether you're apparently getting more whump/ponk/whatever.

 

 

[Newfoundfreedom]

10 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said:

Seriously now, it honestly makes zero difference what a shim is made of.  I've shimmed basses a few times (before I knew how to set up a bass properly) and have used a playing card, breakfast cereal box, perspex, old credit card etc.

 

There's this perceived thing about sustain.  Let's address this first.  How long do you let your notes ring out for?  Ten seconds?  20?  For the love of god, forget about sustain.  I have no idea what music you play, but if you're doing anything where your tempo is less than say two beats a minute, you're not going to notice anything, if at all.  

 

Tone.  Ack.  Are you a solo bass player, treading the boards alone?  Probably not.  Any (perceived) change of tone from your choice of shim material will be net zero; you'll want to hear something and will convince yourself things are different, but they won't be.  If you're in a band, any (perceived) nuances in tone will be lost completely.  If you're playing live, seriously, nobody in the audience cares about your hardwood shim or whether you're apparently getting more whump/ponk/whatever.

 

 

 

Hurray for common sense! 👏

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

On 30/10/2023 at 23:36, Baloney Balderdash said:

What the... 

Are you genuinely unaware how some of your posts come across?

I read this thread purely for entertainment value as I could see your name was attached to it.

@PaulThePlug interpreted your OP a little differently and was only trying to help.

Edited November 4, 2023 by hiram.k.hackenbacker

[Baloney Balderdash]

51 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

Are you genuinely unaware how some of your posts come across?

I read this thread purely for entertainment value as I could see your name was attached to it.

@PaulThePlug interpreted your OP a little differently and was only trying to help.

Seems bias confirmation is the issue from what you write.

 

Pretty upstream to beat that one.

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[ezbass]

1 hour ago, NancyJohnson said:

There's this perceived thing about sustain.  Let's address this first.  How long do you let your notes ring out for?  Ten seconds?  20?  For the love of god, forget about sustain.  I have no idea what music you play, but if you're doing anything where your tempo is less than say two beats a minute, you're not going to notice anything, if at all.  

Sustain on the skinny strings of an electric guitar may be desirable, but on a bass? I’m with @NancyJohnsonon this. In fact, something that might limit sustain might actually be a good thing for mainstream music. Experimental, ambient and possibly solo pieces might be a different kettle of fish.

Edited November 4, 2023 by ezbass

[biro]

I have used credit card shims in several instruments. Bear in mind that the alternative is generally sandpaper. What should worry you is not the loss of sustain (I'd be surprised if this could be a factor), but rather the potential for the neck to develop a ski jump. See here: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/getting-the-facts-about-ski-jumps.1111265/

 

The short answer is that if your neck is made decently, there should be no risks. That said, I would recommend that you cut the credit card properly and you fit it more or less precisely at the bottom of the neck pocket, so as to make sure that it won't shift if you have to remove the neck and so on. 

[Geek99]

Why don’t you use one or more thin layers of copper sheet ? 

[Doctor J]

My favourite shim was made from a Callan Veterinary Hospital business card. They closed a few years ago, sadly, so now I use Aldi AAA battery packaging. I haven't checked to see if the AA card has different tonal properties, but some day I might. As for Lidl, let's not open that can of worms.

[NancyJohnson]

1 minute ago, Doctor J said:

My favourite shim was made from a Callan Veterinary Hospital business card. They closed a few years ago, sadly, so now I use Aldi AAA battery packaging. I haven't checked to see if the AA card has different tonal properties, but some day I might. As for Lidl, let's not open that can of worms.

 

Aah, Callan.  Heard nothing but good about their business cards.  I believe Likkle Sickly Kitteh cards might be an apt replacement.

 

 

[itu]

Do you think that changing the screws from mild steel to acid proof or brass would make any difference? After all the sound will use the bolts, too, to transfer the sound from neck to body and backwards. The key thing here is tight connection.

 

Come on, I really would worry about say, climate over a credit card shim.