Using backing tracks live

[Aygotaygo]

Hi all. The cover band I’m playing in are going to be using backing tracks to fill it the live sound. We’ll be be building the tracks ourselves, so we’re looking for a recommendation on what to use to actually play them. We’ve tried the usual MP3 with the click panned hard left, but there’s some awful bleed on the FOH (right side). Can’t get rid of this no matter how we set configure it in Logic, which I’m told is a known issue.

 

So, we’re thinking about using the ShowOne app so we don’t have to bother with printing the click at all.

 

I’d be really grateful for some insight from anyone who’s used the ShowOne app regarding it’s stability, how to connect it, etc.

 

Thanks in advance 🙂

[BigRedX]

How have you got the audio file(s) for the backing and click configured? As two separate mono files or a stereo file with the pan for the backing and click baked in?

 

How are you outputting the backing and the click? Via the headphones socket or using a decent audio interface?

 

If the problem really is Logic (which I doubt as I use it for live backing with no problems like this) is it the best application for playback of the backing track?

[WinterMute]

We used Main Stage on a Mac or occasionally Garage Band on an iPad but we had a cheapish 4 output interface, send the stereo track with the backing through 1 and 2, and the click through 3 to a headphone amp to the drummer, everyone listens to the drummer, who listens to the click...

 

We found that a decent headphone amp is essential to get the click loud enough, the headphone output on the interface wasn't up to the job. You can send a sub mix of the backing through to the drummer too, if he wants to hear the track.

 

You'll obviously need to set your click track up with a count in for the drummer to begin his count for you guys.

 

Some issues to look at:

 

How do you run click for a track with no drums in the intro? We used to have the drummer peddle the hi-hat or play a pattern with a shaker. Alternatively, you could run with IEM for the band all listening to the submix with the click, but I found that tended to spoil my enjoyment of the whole process...

 

You do need to allocate the task of managing the tech to someone, preferably the drummer himself, assuming he can handle the responsibility!

[Aygotaygo]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

How have you got the audio file(s) for the backing and click configured? As two separate mono files or a stereo file with the pan for the backing and click baked in?

 

How are you outputting the backing and the click? Via the headphones socket or using a decent audio interface?

 

If the problem really is Logic (which I doubt as I use it for live backing with no problems like this) is it the best application for playback of the backing track?

 

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

How have you got the audio file(s) for the backing and click configured? As two separate mono files or a stereo file with the pan for the backing and click baked in?

 

How are you outputting the backing and the click? Via the headphones socket or using a decent audio interface?

 

If the problem really is Logic (which I doubt as I use it for live backing with no problems like this) is it the best application for playback of the backing track?

The file is configured as a stereo file with the click and panning baked in, and it’s being outputted straight from an iPhone, but with a decent stereo splitter. It’s a setup that’s worked previously with other backing tracks that weren’t made in Logic.

 

Could you elaborate on how would two separate mono tracks work? I’m struggling!

 

thanks

[NancyJohnson]

We supported a band of young'uns years ago, who thought that swapping guitars every song and using backing tracks (keys/pads/backing vocals) was the way to go; the drummer was using a little iPod Nano which was jacked into FoH via a mini-jack.  It was a collision of problems.  It was all very odd; as the iPod was going to FoH, you could hear the count in and then silence; they were absolutely reliant on the on the drummer keeping exact time.  Of course this was never going to happen; they were always playing catch up or slow down as they were never in sync with what was being played on the iPod, so the backing tracks were coming in late or early. 

 

I'll remember their final song until they put me in the ground.  The lead guitarist (frankly, I've never seen a guy so in love with himself; his girlfriend was nearby swooning and I definitely saw him mouthing, 'I love you,' to her), swapped to a different guitar, the wrong one as it happened, which was tuned down a full step.  So you had the backing tracks coming in wrong, the bass and rhythm guitarists looking as though they wished the ground would open and the lead guitarist oblivious he was horribly out of tune, all the while whispering sweet nothings and pointing at his mates.  

 

Oh, the hilarity.

[BigRedX]

On 14/11/2023 at 18:56, Aygotaygo said:

The file is configured as a stereo file with the click and panning baked in, and it’s being outputted straight from an iPhone, but with a decent stereo splitter. It’s a setup that’s worked previously with other backing tracks that weren’t made in Logic.

 

Could you elaborate on how would two separate mono tracks work? I’m struggling!

 

thanks

 

Are you sure that the problem is a bug in Logic and not some bus (mis-)routing that you haven't spotted?

 

How are you generating the audio for your click track? Have you programmed it yourself or are you relying on the metronome in Logic?

 

To rule out the problem being inherent in Logic itself I would do a mono bounce of the backing without the click and then one of just the click. Drop both audio files into a new Logic project, pan each to opposite sides of the stereo, check that there's no cross talk and do a new bounce to a stereo file. Check that there's no cross talk on the resulting file and you should be good.

 

There's nothing wrong with using a backing track provided that you know what you are doing and have had sufficient rehearsal to work through both the technical problems and any issues that might impact on the "performance" (i.e. too much space between each song etc.)

 

I've been working in bands that have used some form of automated backing whether it be drum machines and sequencers or tapes since 1982 and it can be done to the point where the audience is barely aware of it other than wondering how some of the sounds being produced are created. My current system is based around a MacBook running Logic with a decent quality audio interface. Everything in contained within a single 3U rack case with all connections to the outside world on a patch panel at the front. Everything inside the case is bolted/cable-tied/hot-glued into place so nothing important can become disconnected. We run 2 or 4 channels of backing plus a separate click for the drummer. The system is controlled by a USB foot-switch system which allows me to stop and start the backing, turn looped segments on and off, and automatically call up the next song using macro. It also provides MIDI patch change  and CC commands for the multi-effects and synthesisers.

[theplumber]

Keep music live lol!

[Aygotaygo]

8 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

Are you sure that the problem is a bug in Logic and not some bus (mis-)routing that you haven't spotted?

 

How are you generating the audio for your click track? Have you programmed it yourself or are you relying on the metronome in Logic?

 

To rule out the problem being inherent in Logic itself I would do a mono bounce of the backing without the click and then one of just the click. Drop both audio files into a new Logic project, pan each to opposite sides of the stereo, check that there's no cross talk and do a new bounce to a stereo file. Check that there's no cross talk on the resulting file and you should be good.

 

There's nothing wrong with using a backing track provided that you know what you are doing and have had sufficient rehearsal to work through both the technical problems and any issues that might impact on the "performance" (i.e. too much space between each song etc.)

 

I've been working in bands that have used some form of automated backing whether it be drum machines and sequencers or tapes since 1982 and it can be done to the point where the audience is barely aware of it other than wondering how some of the sounds being produced are created. My current system is based around a MacBook running Logic with a decent quality audio interface. Everything in contained within a single 3U rack case with all connections to the outside world on a patch panel at the front. Everything inside the case is bolted/cable-tied/hot-glued into place so nothing important can become disconnected. We run 2 or 4 channels of backing plus a separate click for the drummer. The system is controlled by a USB foot-switch system which allows me to stop and start the backing, turn looped segments on and off, and automatically call up the next song using macro. It also provides MIDI patch change  and CC commands for the multi-effects and synthesisers.

Thanks for the reply. I generate the click track using a midi track on it’s own channel.
 

Forgive my ignorance, but is bouncing two mono tracks into a stereo track (and panning them), not the same as bouncing the mono stems in the project down to a stereo track, again with the panning?

 

Thanks  🙂

 

 

[Aygotaygo]

3 hours ago, theplumber said:

Keep music live lol!

The music is live! We play everything on the backing tracks, and it’s cheaper (and less hassle) thank recruiting another musician 😁

[JohnH89]

The point the previous poster was trying to make , I think , is that the backing track is recorded , and hence not live . I have never used backing tracks . I wouldn't know how to . No criticism is meant . And it sounds like it is already more hassle than it is worth . Just my opinion . 👍

[Muppet]

We’re running Ableton Live on a laptop. Stereo backing track on two channels, click on a third channel and cue on a fourth (the cue gives voice commands such as “intro 2 3 4” for us all to start and stop all together in time with the track). Start, stop and advance triggered by midi pedal. All goes in to a Behringer XR18 and each band member has stereo IEM feed. I have click panned left, cue panned right and the rest of the instruments somewhere in between.  Sounds more complicated that it actually is and works really well.
 

 

[theplumber]

37 minutes ago, Aygotaygo said:

The music is live! We play everything on the backing tracks, and it’s cheaper (and less hassle) thank recruiting another musician 😁

If it works for you why not. I prefer to hear bands playing everything live for good or bad. But it does open up a lot of tunes that you might not be able to cover. Getting a keyboard player can help but getting a good one is hard! Never played in a band that used backing tracks but di a jam night with a drum machine and it was a bit of a joke!

[BigRedX]

There's two problems in this thread.

 

Firstly "helpful" comments by people who have very obviously never played in a band that uses backing tracks in their life. I'm sorry but you really have nothing to add that will help the OP, all you are doing is showing off your ignorance. If you want to start another thread moaning about bands that use programmed or recorded backing as part of their live performance by all means knock yourselves out, but please don't clog up this thread with your prejudices.

 

Secondly we are getting drip-fed morsels of information by the OP which mean the goalposts change with each new posts and assumptions that have had to be made to help find a solution to the OPs problem are rendered irrelevant by the next reply.

 

So lets try and break down the problem piece by piece and try and find a solution that works for the OP.

 

1. How are your backing tracks created? Your first post suggested that you were producing them from scratch yourself, but subsequent posts seem to contradict this.

 

2. You mentioned that this cross-talk problem has only started to occur since moving to Logic. What were you using before? And why have you stopped using it?

 

3. What application are you using on your iPhone to play back the backing? And what file format is your backing track in? (If you are using MP3s I would try keeping it as a WAV or AIFF and see if that cures the problem).

 

4. Can you please post links to the cable or device you are using to split the stereo signal from the iPhone into two mono signals?

 

 

The reason I suggested mixing down the backing separately to the click and then doing another bounce to combine them into a stereo file, is that is should completely eliminate any hidden routing issues that are causing the crosstalk problem. Especially if you do the final bounce within a brand new project file with no pre-configured routing.

 

I've just done a trial bounce on one of my band's backing files within my copy of Logic panning the music hard left and the click hard right and I have total separation between the two which can both be heard in the headphones where there is no audible trace of the click on the music channel, and seen by looking at the waveform editor display where there is no visible sign of the music on the click side. Therefore AFAIAC the problem is not inherent in Logic itself, but is either user error when doing the stereo bounce, or occurring somewhere else in the process.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by BigRedX

[diskwave]

Back in the day a good pop cover band sounded good because of one thing... a top draw keyboard player. Way more fun than a backing track and you can go where you like. Played with many over the years. One memorable one was a guy with a Rhodes and little casio type thing on top for strings....We sounded great doing old school disco, soul and funk. 

 

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, greavesbass said:

Back in the day a good pop cover band sounded good because of one thing... a top draw keyboard player. Way more fun than a backing track and you can go where you like. Played with many over the years. One memorable one was a guy with a Rhodes and little casio type thing on top for strings....We sounded great doing old school disco, soul and funk. 

 

But music has moved on since then. The sorts of parts that my bands have on their backing are simultaneously technically complex, repetitious and TBH rather boring to play (but don't sound boring as part of the overall song arrangement). Trying to find someone with the skills to play them accurately enough is pretty much impossible. It's much better to hand these parts off to a machine that won't complain or play them badly.

[Paul S]

12 hours ago, theplumber said:

If it works for you why not. I prefer to hear bands playing everything live for good or bad. But it does open up a lot of tunes that you might not be able to cover. Getting a keyboard player can help but getting a good one is hard! Never played in a band that used backing tracks but di a jam night with a drum machine and it was a bit of a joke!

 

My guess is that if you go to see any band a level or two up from playing dad rock covers in the Grease and Elbow they are already playing to backing tracks, you just wouldn't necessarily be aware of it.  If a band has a co-ordinated light to music show and/or back projections they are of necessity programmed into a click track and if you are programmed into a click track then almost certainly there are going to be layers of vocals/keys/extra instruments etc as backing tracks. 

 

From a personal persepctive, I was in a Bon Jovi tribute for a few years and we used backing tracks and back projections - the value they added to the performance was immense.

[No lust in Jazz]

We use either self created tracks from a DAW, (Reaper). We also have a self generated click track synced to the BT. This is played through a Roland SPD-SX - the click is routed to the drummer and the BT is routed though the PA - we cue off the drummer..

 

Not exactly Conny Plank, but it works just fine.

Edited November 17, 2023 by No lust in Jazz

[Dan Dare]

23 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

But music has moved on since then. The sorts of parts that my bands have on their backing are simultaneously technically complex, repetitious and TBH rather boring to play (but don't sound boring as part of the overall song arrangement). Trying to find someone with the skills to play them accurately enough is pretty much impossible. It's much better to hand these parts off to a machine that won't complain or play them badly.

 

Exactly. Plus, the machine won't need to be paid (important in these days when gig fees are being squeezed), so you can take gigs that wouldn't be worth doing for a larger band, you can play a smaller stage because fewer players need less room, etc. Yes, it's great to take out a full band and all the bells and whistles, but it often doesn't work from a practical perspective.

[NancyJohnson]

The principal of backing track usage is fine if you don't need a full time keyboard player or your budget doesn't extend to a string or horn section.

 

Obviously it's all a matter of how you want to do it and the cost thereof.  Feasibly, you just have your whole set on a DAW running on a laptop/tablet.  You should be able to split/assign the backing tracks to front of house and other content (click) to some kind of in ears.  You'd absolutely have to be on the top of your game too; no room for mistakes, no room for swing.  

 

 

[Greg Edwards69]

On 16/11/2023 at 13:20, NancyJohnson said:

I'll remember their final song until they put me in the ground.  The lead guitarist (frankly, I've never seen a guy so in love with himself; his girlfriend was nearby swooning and I definitely saw him mouthing, 'I love you,' to her), swapped to a different guitar, the wrong one as it happened, which was tuned down a full step.  So you had the backing tracks coming in wrong, the bass and rhythm guitarists looking as though they wished the ground would open and the lead guitarist oblivious he was horribly out of tune, all the while whispering sweet nothings and pointing at his mates.  

Was his name Eddie Van Halen?j

 

 

[borntohang]

The iPod/mp3 approach is fine but it's really worth investing in something more rugged.

 

We used a little half-rack Presonus interface with multiple outs (I think 4) plugged into an XLR patchbay and a headphone preamp - the FoH feeds went stereo to the XLR bay and the click went on a seperate channel to both XLR and the headphone pre which meant we could get it in ears for the whole band or just the drummer patching directly into the pre. Whole thing fitted into a 2U rack case which previously held an ABM head and still had enough space to drop the laptop in for fly dates.

 

On the Mac I think we were running Logic but I never dealt with that side. Drummer said it was simple enough to set up routing and because we had the original stems in the session we could mute needed. We did a couple gigs as a quintet where I played keys and guitars so he was able to just silence those parts in the session and leave the strings and synths running.