Is there such a thing as a simple, compact pedal that can profile/capture amps as per a Kemper profiler

[warwickhunt]

 

...or this!   

 

[spencer.b]

Excuse my ignorance but is the profiling thing on bass about going ampless? I get it if it's IEMs and I get it for guitar but a lot of gigs the bass is a DI going foh in front of the amp , sometimes a mic' d or a DI from the amp but IME often not even on big stages with an SVT 

So would a bassist with a kemper give the engineer an out and get it back in the wedge and the kemper signal go FOH ?

[warwickhunt]

1 hour ago, spencer.b said:

Excuse my ignorance but is the profiling thing on bass about going ampless? I get it if it's IEMs and I get it for guitar but a lot of gigs the bass is a DI going foh in front of the amp , sometimes a mic' d or a DI from the amp but IME often not even on big stages with an SVT 

So would a bassist with a kemper give the engineer an out and get it back in the wedge and the kemper signal go FOH ?

 

For me the Kemper was a complicated solution to a 'silent stage' set up.  I tried various modelling pedals to FOH + IEM but nothing sounded right to me.  Moved to various pre pedals to FOH + monitor but not convinced.  Kemper was the ideal solution to capturing my amp and cab sound to send to FOH + my monitor but it is overkill.  I spent a long time doing proper A/B comparisons and eventually plumped for an analogue preamp pedal + effects with 1 send to FOH and a split out to my side-fill monitor.

 

[soulstar89]

3 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

 

For me the Kemper was a complicated solution to a 'silent stage' set up.  I tried various modelling pedals to FOH + IEM but nothing sounded right to me.  Moved to various pre pedals to FOH + monitor but not convinced.  Kemper was the ideal solution to capturing my amp and cab sound to send to FOH + my monitor but it is overkill.  I spent a long time doing proper A/B comparisons and eventually plumped for an analogue preamp pedal + effects with 1 send to FOH and a split out to my side-fill monitor.

 

I just got back from the Yamaha flagship store in central london. Yamaha own line 6 so I played with the xl stomp pedals.  NOPE not for me. Way too detailed and imo over complicated. Just to adjust some EQ needed unnecessary steps to adjust. Just not for me 

[WinterMute]

On 22/11/2023 at 17:22, NancyJohnson said:

Old Bass POD. 

 

It's not a bad shout actually, I used the Pod XT Pro for many years, and a very serviceable unit it was, I had a Pod XT as a back up, which lacks the inputs and outputs but sounds just as good.

 

I still have the XT bean in my studio, there are some things it does that the QC can't.

 

Dirt cheap now too.

[Aidan63]

What about the new Boss IR2 Pedal. that seems to have pretty much every trick in the box in a compact pedal, good review on The Studio Rats channel on YT today

[bassman7755]

On 21/11/2023 at 18:29, warwickhunt said:

 

I spent 4 hrs today with another bassist who has also recently started down the road of Kemper Profiling and between us we profiled, tested and compared a variety of permutations.  I came to the conclusion that yes I probably don't care much for these sims/IRs/profiles et al. and it pretty much renders my original question as pointless!  LOL

 

I dont think you mentioned what amp it is that your actually trying to capture ?

[Aidan63]

I assumed there would be Studios/engineers/techs/musicians offering a capture service but a quick Google didn't throw up any such results; surely if you invested in IR sampling hardware and some good mics you'd want to make a bit of money back on your investment ?

[warwickhunt]

2 hours ago, bassman7755 said:

 

I dont think you mentioned what amp it is that your actually trying to capture ?

 

Thunderfunk.

[Aidan63]

I did a bit more googling and found someone who does personal IRs, and has some bass rig IRs already, so maybe worth contacting RobHobson, with the Boss IR2 pedal you'd be sorted; maybe 😃

[ambient]

The Darkglass Element and I believe a few of their other pedals will. I have their ADAM pedal. It does too but it's quite a large pedal.

[warwickhunt]

35 minutes ago, Aidan63 said:

I did a bit more googling and found someone who does personal IRs, and has some bass rig IRs already, so maybe worth contacting RobHobson, with the Boss IR2 pedal you'd be sorted; maybe 😃

 

I've taken a step back from the whole digital/profile/IR/cab sims et al and had a good think.  Personally I think I got swept along by other people's desires and opinions in my bands (silent stages / IEW etc) and lost sight of the fact that I get a great sound from my gear (amp and cabs) and the new 'direction' was just trying to replicate what I already had but in an alternative form.  If an amp and cab sounds great to me and works, I can still send a DI feed to the desk which can do what it needs, why would a pedal/preamp/Kemper etc be any better?  My bass sound on stage can't detract from the FOH bass sound and if the band member using IEMs wants to hear the bass he can just blend it from the desk.

 

In short; a digital/pedal/preamp format gains me nothing over what I've used traditionally.

 

Don't get me wrong, some of the profiles I've heard are excellent and a profiler gives you the chance to switch from Mesa to Ampeg to Hi-watt via every amp in between BUT I personally use pretty much ONE sound for every gig and I like my Thunderfunk, so why would I need the ability to have all of the others in a 'live' setting?  Studio guys might love this flexibility but surely the studio has this facility?  

 

Either way, I'm reverting to amp>cabs+old school pedals.    

[Lfalex v1.1]

https://www.soundonsound.com/news/kemper-reveal-profiler-player

 

New (posted recently elsewhere on here) €698.

 

Only 4 slots, though. 

[Skybone]

https://www.kemper-amps.com/products/uk/profiler-player.html

[Owen]

Interesting. A shade under £500.

[Owen]

Well, 499 on their site. More in shops. 

[Phil Starr]

On 20/11/2023 at 17:33, warwickhunt said:

As with all of these things they are guitar oriented which means the architecture is generally over complex for 'many' bassists needs.  I want my amp in a pint size pedal that has an in/out gain + 3 band EQ controls.  If you could do the capture thing and store half a dozen of your favourite amps that could be easily manipulated, I'd be happy as a pig in poop.  

I hate to break it to you but what you were looking for doesn't exist and probably never will. If you look at the output plot of an amp it may have half a dozen irregularities, the frequency response of a speaker may have hundreds, some of these are very narrow peaks and others covering more than an octave, you'd need hundreds of frequencies adjusted and variable Q on most of them. Even if you had 12th octave tone controls your ears would still detect a difference 3 band eq isn't going to cut it. That's just eq too. Do you know of any hi-fi system that is indistinguishable from acoustic instruments? Our science just isn't up to realistic reproduction of anything that will fool our ears. Then there are room interactions to think about, your cherished sound will only work in one spot in one room, put it in a bigger, smaller, more reflective, higher ceilinged space or any of a hundred variables including how many people in the room and the magic will go. The sims are getting better all the time and AI may eventually be able to design something to fool us, we may eventually replace the loudspeaker with something better but for now you'll never be more than close to a sound in you head being reproduced accurately in every venue. 

 

On 21/11/2023 at 09:43, warwickhunt said:

I don't want sh*t amps and cabs that give me a woolly mush

 

On 21/11/2023 at 18:29, warwickhunt said:

I came to the conclusion that yes I probably don't care much for these sims/IRs/profiles et al. and it pretty much renders my original question as pointless!  LOL

Sorry just read these later comments, you've already got there  The only thing I can help with is the woolly mush. If you are putting bass or drums through the PA then remember the bass from them is 360 degrees and the upper mids and treble maybe 60 or less and probably louder than your backline. You'll hear all the bass from the PA and almost none of the top end the woolly mush is the result of bass from the PA flooding the stage. You can only remove this with earplugs or in-ears but it's helpful to filter all the deep bass out of your stage amp and just pass the frequencies you need to restore a balanced tone.

[tayste_2000]

Can I enquire as to how you’re comparing the amps you like to the models, profiles and IRs you don’t?

 

Is the big amp you like Di’d? Mic’ed off stage and pumped in to your iems? Or is it amp in the room vs headphones in your ears and the issue is less you dislike the profiles but dislike iem bass tone/feel.

 

Or is it backline rig vs foh tone?

 

I’m always wrestling with this myself I’ve been pretty exclusive IEMs for around 5 years (occasional amp as a monitor for the band) but came from a very big rig background. Eventually I’ve gone down to just a clean di as I didn’t need multiple amp tones and just want to travel as light as possible.

 

Even this becomes marginal gains having compared a Stagebug to an acme di and coming away thinking a di is di 🤷🏻‍♂️ (says the man with 3 tube Di’s and 6 other none tube options)

 

But there is so much great gear available that I’m always on the hunt for some sort of magic tone box.
 

I often consider the kemper, or tonex to model my (a) rig but then I don’t have a rig, I don’t have an inherent tonal preference, I have an eq preference and can dial in “me” on anything put in front including what’s piped back to my IEMs.

 

None of these solutions will ever feel like when I was running 2 Mesa Strategy 400s into 12 10inch speakers 😈 and if they don’t feel like that, does the fact it sounds the same really matter? I never even thought about the DI tone from that rig because that much air moving was just glorious.

 

Genuinely interested in the various approaches you’ve taken in this area (hopefully to save myself a lot of money)

 

[lidl e]

Am i incorrect in saying you might be looking for something like this?

 

https://shift-line.com/cabzone_bass

 

I rhink it looks like the perfect solution.  Id buy ine today, but theyre a russian company and i dont think theyre producing right niw.

 

This seems perfect though. Amp and cab modeling in a small footpri t. 

 

Seems to be exactly what im looking for. Unfortunately will never fund one 

 

 

Edit: i see you're looking to mkae your own profiles? This wouldnt do that.

Edited January 7 by lidl e

[warwickhunt]

5 minutes ago, tayste_2000 said:

Can I enquire as to how you’re comparing the amps you like to the models, profiles and IRs you don’t?

 

Is the big amp you like Di’d? Mic’ed off stage and pumped in to your iems? Or is it amp in the room vs headphones in your ears and the issue is less you dislike the profiles but dislike iem bass tone/feel.

 

Or is it backline rig vs foh tone?

 

I’m always wrestling with this myself I’ve been pretty exclusive IEMs for around 5 years (occasional amp as a monitor for the band) but came from a very big rig background. Eventually I’ve gone down to just a clean di as I didn’t need multiple amp tones and just want to travel as light as possible.

 

Even this becomes marginal gains having compared a Stagebug to an acme di and coming away thinking a di is di 🤷🏻‍♂️ (says the man with 3 tube Di’s and 6 other none tube options)

 

But there is so much great gear available that I’m always on the hunt for some sort of magic tone box.
 

I often consider the kemper, or tonex to model my (a) rig but then I don’t have a rig, I don’t have an inherent tonal preference, I have an eq preference and can dial in “me” on anything put in front including what’s piped back to my IEMs.

 

None of these solutions will ever feel like when I was running 2 Mesa Strategy 400s into 12 10inch speakers 😈 and if they don’t feel like that, does the fact it sounds the same really matter? I never even thought about the DI tone from that rig because that much air moving was just glorious.

 

Genuinely interested in the various approaches you’ve taken in this area (hopefully to save myself a lot of money)

 

 

In short... THIS!  

 

🤣

 

I've gigged 40 years + with maybe 39 of that going through some on stage rig that has either been just my backline monitor and/or FOH bass sound.  I can't/won't over analyse that side of things as I've chopped and changed gear (for 'whatever' reason) over the years but some rigs I've kept for 5-10 years and some combinations have lasted a couple of gigs.  As I say, that is a whole other conversation but ultimately I have to 'like' the sound coming out of the boxes so that it inspires me or gives me some feelgood factor; I'm not going to play bass and it sound naff for me regardless of it sounding superb for an audience.  

 

Fast forward to the last year or two; technology moves on, bands start to want to move in certain sonic directions and I'm happy to try.  

 

I tried to recreate the sound and feeling I get from amp/cab on stage via various means; pedals, preamps, profilers etc into monitors, IE and combinations of both.  This included me capturing my amp and cab via a Kemper, which was a pretty faithful recreation of what I like/want.  However the issue is that I'm struggling to get those things (captures, IRs, analogue/digital pedals) to give me that feeling, which I concede is almost impossible.  I've had glitches like desk software architecture, poor ear/sound isolation, lack of ability to hear others easily (going into your phone/device mid song is not great) et al and though I'm not trying to recreate trouser-flap/heft, I would like connection with the bass and the other musicians! 

 

Actually in searching for the right words to convey what I'm missing or want to achieve, I think that word 'connection' is quite apt.  I've always felt that while using amps etc the band have been a unit and connected, whereas using various other methods to achieve amplification of our playing AND monitoring ourselves, I've lost that connection.  I've come full circle back to going from my bass to analogue pedals (possibly a whole other thread), with a feed from the pedals to PA (for FOH and other musicians to monitor from the desk) and a separate line out to a Rolls PM351 where I mix in an Aux feed from the desk with the vocals and guitar.  I can then blend my bass with the desk feed in real time (assuming I'm happy with the mix I give myself of the rest of the band).  I'm also including an ambient mic into the desk to try and capture some of the on-stage sound of the drums (just kick and snare into the desk) and audience.  

 

I've probably missed something but I'll come back to it.  LOL

 

 

 

 

[tayste_2000]

Have you tried the Backbeat or Porter & Davies stuff?

 

IEM wise what headphones are you using?

 

Is the whole band on IEMs?

 

For a long time I just used a custom sfx unit that had bass in and line in and a volume for each of them. I’d take a passive line out from the foh speakers for my line in (so what you assume is a nice full mix as it’s foh) and then run my bass in and have that louder. This is likely what you’re doing with the Rolls but maybe overthinking the feed in.

 

This particular unit would then allow me to pass the line in on to anyone else with iems. It also had a DI so it was a 1 stop solution. In this setup I felt a little like I was missing some polish, not necessarily eq, or compression or overdrive but just a less raw bass into di tone. (I say not necessarily because I’ve added all these things and each and everything felt overwhelming to the tone I wanted)

 

I think because I practice so much into an ipad or using the Nux mighty plug what I actually miss is some ad/da conversion in my signal chain, so I’ve recently added a Sennheiser wireless that I plan on using as my tuner and di and then something like a Zoom H6 to give me a more complex IEM mix whilst still being really portable and quick to setup.

 

I don’t want to be an donkey (but I am, so I will be) but I wonder if the issue is not the lack of a rig but the level at which you approach the WHOLE IEM setup. I have friends running custom moulded IEMs with their own mix in a stereo feed into £800+ wireless units and never hear any complaints, but every guitarist with a £13 set of headphones running off a spare feed powered by something cheap from behringer will tell me how it doesn’t sound/feel like their rig.

 

Again not to knock your efforts, because I’m very much in this space (been looking at big tube rigs all weekend) but my experiences got better when the whole band switched to IEMs (because then the guitarist used an Iridium and not just a whatever feed out of the back of his amp) and when I was able to control my own position (volume) in my own mix.

 

With all the above said, I’ve just spent 3 hours messing with Tonex on the iPad, if the model of the Noble is accurate I’m just going to buy one and never wonder about anything else 😂

 

[warwickhunt]

Not tried backbeat or P&D but I could look at it.

 

I started with the KZ10 budget IE via Behringer P2 but I also trialled X-Vive unit and a set of AKG 'headphones', which identified an early issue with the digital desk and some presets.  I've had issues with the whole fit, size and weight of the KZ10s so I've since bought Sennheiser IE100s to see what they do and already the fit/seal is massively improved.

 

Yes the band(s) are using IE with quality feeds into the desk from Helix, Fractal etc so no issues with it being terrible DIs from cheap amps.  The desk gives us 4 independent Aux outs so each band member is allocated one (always the same one so you should be able to set and forget) and has access to set the respective levels for drums/bass/guitar/vocals to their desired level.  I take this feed (sans bass) into the Rolls and a separate line from the bass preamp/pedals into the rolls; reason for this is so that I can quickly/easily tweak the bass level relative to the band mix for my IE very quickly without need to access a digital interface.  The added bonus is that should anything go wrong with the aux feed I still have my bass into my ears.

 

Wireless is something I have A/B with a couple of wireless sources and Behringer P2 but it isn't the source of any of what I feel are shortcomings.  

 

If I did think that a custom set of moulds and a £1000 wireless set would give me what I wanted I'd commit BUT if I can't even get close with what I am trialling then it could be that it just isn't for me.  I should add that I've used ear plugs and custom moulded attenuated plugs for 20+ years and I have no problem with listening to program music using IE, it is simply the 'live experience' which isn't translating for me. 

 

 

[tayste_2000]

How is everyone else finding the IEM experience?

 

Such as if you can’t resolve your issues will there just be a single amp on stage in form of a giant bass stack?

 

Have you tried running your feed with bass in it and using the rolls just to fill that out further? (I’ve never had foh not include bass just because I have my own level for bass, I just ask for the full foh mix and then level my bass up in it)

 

I’m currently using the zs10s and have previously used the Xive.

 

How do you feel about your bass tone out front? I can’t say I’ve ever really listened to mine.

 

Next purchase will be moulded IEMs because I’ve committed to this life and even if I only ever use them for home practice it’ll be an improvement.

[warwickhunt]

10 minutes ago, tayste_2000 said:

How is everyone else finding the IEM experience?

 

Such as if you can’t resolve your issues will there just be a single amp on stage in form of a giant bass stack?

 

Have you tried running your feed with bass in it and using the rolls just to fill that out further? (I’ve never had foh not include bass just because I have my own level for bass, I just ask for the full foh mix and then level my bass up in it)

 

I’m currently using the zs10s and have previously used the Xive.

 

How do you feel about your bass tone out front? I can’t say I’ve ever really listened to mine.

 

Next purchase will be moulded IEMs because I’ve committed to this life and even if I only ever use them for home practice it’ll be an improvement.

 

Band A - Guitarist/vocalist has used digital modelling since forever (no backline) and uses IE all the time.  He has confessed he just accepts that IE sound may not be as good as maybe a quality amp/cab but he is just happy to get a good sound out front.  Drummer can/does use IE as he does theatre/pit work but is actually happy enough if I use a monitor on a stand at the side of the stage.

 

Band B - Same guitarist as 'A'.  Vocalist uses a combination of on-stage monitor amp/cab + IE.  Drummer will only use a side fill monitor.

 

I have my bass in the desk feed if I want it but as I have it independently fed via the same source as the desk feed, it makes more sense to just balance this.  Oddly balancing my bass v's other instruments isn't an issue.  I have the feeling of a disconnect with my environment which I can only relate to say listening to a good quality hi-fi or AV system v's sitting with headphones on.  

 

I never gelled with the KZ10s as they were not a good fit for my ear canal and I never got a good seal (yes lots of different size, shape and compounds used) added to which the bulk of the units outside of my ear seemed to drag the IE down/out.  The IE100 are massively better for fit + I prefer the tone of them, despite them being single driver v's 5 drivers in the KZs.  The Sennheisers are the reason I've come back to try this again but I will be using analogue tone shaping pedals to get what I want not captures, models, IRs etc.

 

Bass tone out front I have left well alone, my concern is my enjoyment of my tone on stage.  I accepted a long time ago that 90% of an audience couldn't tell a chicken from a Cello never mind a good P bass tone to a Jazz.  So if the engineer is happy and I don't hate it, I let be; hopefully by supplying the desk with a tone based on me, my bass and whatever tone-shaping pedals I use, then it will be what I expect.

[tayste_2000]

I totally get where you’re coming from and mixed with my own experience I’d say it’s going to be a struggle but also given the gigging situations, something you’re going to want to pursue.

 

I think we put too much emphasis on isolation with IEMs, I think the right amount of stage bleed and it starts to feel very similar to the moulded ear plugs (something I’ve also used for around 15 years now). 

 

I looked at the following 

 

along with IEMs with adjustable ports that just let sound on stage in at an attenuated level (like the ear plugs) So you end up with this sound you’re familiar with but then more because of the feed you’re blending in.

 

Add on to this something like the backbeat (I had a G1 and sold it as I didn’t like the extra cables, weird charging and weight on my strap) but the G2 solves most of that (2 for sale on this forum right now) or the Porter & Davies (bass direct have a platform and amp for sale currently). A combination of these will trick your brain and body into feeling it better and you’ll find a far more basic sound then just works.

 

Another option instead of the Rolls could be something like the Zoom H6 then blend ambient mics, foh feed and bass (I guess a H4 may also have enough channels but everyone seems to use the H6 🤷‍♂️) into something that sounds a bit less just direct.

 

Regarding all the other magic boxes, my take aways are.

 

IR’s I’ve enjoyed as they are very subtle eq’s, so they don’t smother your tone, but they do roll a lot of highs off. I play basses generally with flats and a lot of palm muting so this doesn’t bother me. However I turn an IR on and go this great. Few hours later I turn it off and my clean tone sounds so much better and clearer and yadda yadda. I definitely wouldn’t be wanting to send an IR signal to FOH.

 

They do make cheaper amp sims sound a bit better and take the edge off drive pedals that have way to much highs when just done direct. So they were a nice addition to the NUX Mighty Plug Pro I use for home practice (Aguilar amp model and a shiftline IR).

 

Captures and profiles I’ve played with a bunch today and I found one that I was like wow, really wow. But all that did was make me want the actual unit. It was incredible with pedal captures though, I could seriously see myself never buying another vintage inspired drive pedal. For home practice these are definitely worth a look.

 

I’d probably look at Tonex due to the multi platform support over the new Kemper Player, but the Kemper did respark my interest in all this again..

 

Analog tone shaping and preamp pedals I don’t think are going to cut it for you, I’ve been on this mission for a long time myself, looking for that more amp like, magic tone that just gives me more of something 🤷‍♂️ without smothering the tone. The Jad Freer Capo was the best I found but it doesn’t sound like an amp, it sounds like a studio channel strip. So gives you more of that direct tone when you’re in the studio and think YEAH! THIS IS F’IN ACE when played back to you through huge monitors.

 

Pedals that claim to sound like amps, they just don’t or should I say maybe they sound like amps DI’d or mic’d up recorded and played back to you but nothing compensates for that air moving. Given how many gigs I’ve done in recent years with 100w combo’s as monitors and IEMs I have no idea how I ever ran 2 Strategy 400s indoors but I’ll have fond memories and constant ringing in my ears.

 

To get that feel you’re going to have to experiment with more than just tone unfortunately, also maybe try a subtle bit of reverb on your bass 🤷‍♂️ could help but again, only in your ears keep FOH as clean as possible.