Turning gigs down…

[EssexBuccaneer]

We turned a gig down yesterday, the first one we’ve turned away. We have four gigs under our belt and all have gone well, we’ve received glowing feedback and got repeat bookings. We’re really pleased with the progress we’ve made in our first 9 months together.

 

Yesterday we were asked to play a local venue on a Thursday night between Christmas and new year - the venue is known for having no crowds, and pay is a share of the bar takings. Usually pitiful (under £50). So we said we’ve no interest. 
 

I’ve woken this morning feeling a bit poorly and I’m second guessing the decision - on the one hand we’re a new band who want to get all the experience we can, but on the other hand we know we can’t bring a following yet (because we haven’t built one up!) and it’s soul destroying to play to an empty room for no money.
 

Are we really in a position to be turning gigs away, even if they’re a guaranteed waste of a night? 
 

At what point did your bands start saying ‘sorry, we’re better than that venue’?

Edited November 22, 2023 by EssexBuccaneer

[warwickhunt]

What will the net gain be?  

 

I've viewed some gigs as 'paid rehearsals'... but if you aren't getting paid it isn't even that!  

 

Personally (certainly lately) I value my time and the other things in life I'm putting off for these gig times.  If you and your band mates have absolutely nothing else on, then maybe crafting your live performances  could be a good thing!  

[Woodinblack]

5 minutes ago, EssexBuccaneer said:

Are we really in a position to be turning gigs away, even if they’re a guaranteed waste of a night?

 

Absolutely you are - why on earth would you want to play to an empty venue for practically no money. Unless you wanted the practice I dont see why you would want to do it.

 

6 minutes ago, EssexBuccaneer said:

At what point did your bands start saying ‘sorry, we’re better than that venue’?

 

Day one.

[Supernaut]

The barstaff, security, sound person, cleaners etc. all get paid so why not the band? F pay to play venues. 

[neepheid]

We've turned down gigs at known dud venues that never promote their nights, or simply no-one ever seems to visit.  Even if we get paid, it's a complete and utter waste of our time, especially if there's lengthy travelling involved.  Be discerning, it's not a good look for a band playing to hardly any folk, even if it isn't their fault - people could make the leap that there weren't many people there because you're not very good.

[gjones]

If you're an original band then the more gigs the merrier, even if there's not much money involved.

 

But if you're a cover band then the golden rule is never play for less than you feel you're worth, because that sets a precedent for your own band and other bands (i.e. that all bands will play for peanuts). 

 

So I think you made the right decision.

Edited November 22, 2023 by gjones

[Lozz196]

If you`re all on leave over that period treat it as a night out for the band, arrange to be driven there if at all possible, have a social, a laugh and hope that as it`s over the festive period there are more people out than usually would be.

 

Sometimes the benefits can be different than financial, when my old band started out we were doing multi-genre gigs (which the others hated doing, as did I) but I insisted we did them, we got used to working as a unit in front of an audience we didn`t want or need to impress but we perfected how we worked so that once we were gigging to the audiences we wanted we were much better. Playing wise we didn`t change that much but we got used to how each other set up/broke down equipment, what was needed in monitors, who needed prompts on set-lists etc, all things like that, we gained in experience as a unit.

[Downunderwonder]

A MD for a production offered me a fraction of my regular day's wages to be available all day for soundcheck/rehearsal and the gig, and two more evening rehearsals that eventuated into four or five. It was a very slow moving bullet that I dodged.

 

The promoter made hundreds of thousands on the show. Some people have some hide.

[Greg Edwards69]

It wouldn't be the playing to a mostly empty room that would bother me the most. It would be humping all the gear in, setting it all up, breaking it down and lugging it out again. That's a good couple of hours on its own.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Greg Edwards69

[SumOne]

If the band have the evening free and it isn't a big cost to you (e.g. long travel) then I'd tend to look at it as good practice - a step up from a dress rehearsal even if it's not a big or interested audience. Cheaper than hiring a practice room. 

 

Set up/pack down, getting the sound right for different situations, putting on a show/stagecraft,  discipline of ploughing through/masking it if something goes wrong and fixing things on the fly are all things that can only really be practiced playing live - even if it's to a small crowd. 

 

It didn't do the Beatles any harm just putting in the live hours in Hamburg to often uninterested crowds:

 

"Between August 1960 and December 1962, the Beatles played over 250 nights in the seedy seaport city, and venues often demanded they play four or five hours a night. The shows were not glamorous. They played for audiences of “inebriated seamen and bored wh0res,” often antagonizing the audience, and afterwards crashed on bunk beds above the clubs. Early on they were even reduced to playing background music at a strip club."

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by SumOne

[Doctor J]

It's not 1962 anymore.

[neepheid]

3 minutes ago, SumOne said:

If the band have the evening free and it isn't a big cost to you (e.g. long travel) then I'd tend to look at it as good practice - a step up from a dress rehearsal even if it's not a big or interested audience. Cheaper than hiring a practice room. 

 

Set up/pack down, getting the sound right for different situations, putting on a show/stagecraft,  discipline of ploughing through/masking it if something goes wrong and fixing things on the fly are all things that can only really be practiced playing live - even if it's to a small crowd. 

 

It didn't do the Beatles any harm just putting in the live hours in Hamburg to often uninterested crowds:

 

"Between August 1960 and December 1962, the Beatles played over 250 nights in the seedy seaport city, and venues often demanded they play four or five hours a night. The shows were not glamorous. They played for audiences of “inebriated seamen and bored wh0res,” often antagonizing the audience, and afterwards crashed on bunk beds above the clubs. Early on they were even reduced to playing background music at a strip club."

 

 

That's all very well and good when you're a teenager jacked up on Preludin.  Time is on your side then and you probably don't even think about it.  This grumpy 47 year old bassist doesn't like travelling for hours, spending an hour each end of a complete waste of time to set up/tear down gear then travelling for hours to little net effect other than the complete and utter waste of several hours of this dwindling resource that is time.  I've probably used over half of what I've got up now, so I will be more picky about how I use the remainder.

[BigRedX]

Originals or covers?

 

Originals: probably do it unless it involves travelling a long way and there are no other bands on the bill. You never know if any of the handful of people there are going to give you a much better opportunity off the back of what looks like a poor gig.

 

Covers: depends on where it is and how useful a "practice" at a venue with little pressure is going to be.

[SumOne]

33 minutes ago, neepheid said:

 

That's all very well and good when you're a teenager jacked up on Preludin.  Time is on your side then and you probably don't even think about it.  This grumpy 47 year old bassist doesn't like travelling for hours, spending an hour each end of a complete waste of time to set up/tear down gear then travelling for hours to little net effect other than the complete and utter waste of several hours of this dwindling resource that is time.  I've probably used over half of what I've got up now, so I will be more picky about how I use the remainder.

 

Sure, it's not for everyone or every situation. For me, I generally think it's worthwhile for honing a stage show and for the enjoyment I get playing with a band - regardless of the audience or pay.....time was the main caveat I mentioned though. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by SumOne

[NoRhino]

If you do play for a percentage of the bar takings be very clear what you've agreed to.   One of my bands played for £100 plus 10% of bar sales.  The place was rammed.  

At pay up time the owner only paid us an additional £20 saying that the other hundred odd people were part of two big retirement party groups and their spend didn't count.  An absolute shyster. Lesson learnt.

[meterman]

I started turning down the ‘not worth it’ gigs nearly 20 years ago. Gigs where the money doesn’t make it worthwhile, or where the travel is 4x the gig time, or the ‘bar takings only’ gigs, or the $h1thole venue gigs...

 

There’s plenty reasons not to play certain gigs, and if you’re in a band they’re less than if you’re a paid session player. Venues, promoters, managers, ‘name’ artists, etc will often try it on, but once you start saying no to people often enough, they’ll get the message that you’re not interested in them taking the Fosters, and either eventually pay you properly or go elsewhere on the cheap.

[SumOne]

1 hour ago, Doctor J said:

It's not 1962 anymore.

 

Playing in a band to a small/uninterested audience is still the same thing though isn't it? 

[Doctor J]

2 minutes ago, SumOne said:

 

Playing in a band to a small/uninterested audience is still the same thing though isn't it? 

 

Nope, I wouldn't say so, not in the digital age where reputations can be made or destroyed quite easily and quickly, i.e. a single social media post about his band playing to no-one, unable to draw an audience, seen by other landlords or promoters, does their reputation no favours at all. Everything you listed as something which could do them good can (and should) be practiced and worked on in a rehearsal room, not figured out on stage and in public.

[markbunney]

I would look at this as a paid rehearsal and take the gig. Also, if you've only had 4 gigs, it is a good opportunity to practice & improve the efficiency of your set up and strip down time, sound check etc etc.

 

We normally pay £40/£45 for a rehearsal space for the evening, and have to use the provided rehearsal room equipment, so Id look at it as an opportunity to have a rehearsal with your full band set up and PA etc.

 

I am always of the opinion that you never know who might be in a crowd (even if its sparse) and who might want to book you for a wedding, party etc in the future.

 

 

[Dan Dare]

4 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Day one.

 

This. No point or reward in playing in a toilet to a bunch of animals who hate you. It won't be like a public or paid rehearsal - you can't stop in a number/go back and do it again to perfect it, etc. If you get a lot of negativity, you'll probably end up miserable and feeling you're doing it wrong when in reality, it's just wrong place, wrong time. Not worth the grief.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Dan Dare

[MacDaddy]

A positive for doing it:

It can be useful to see how your gear does at gig sound levels, in a no pressure environment.

 

 

[shoulderpet]

I would pass on it and I speak from personal experience. 

 

Was in a band where the singer would book gigs with lousy pay, tiny crowds etc, the first gig we played he told the venue as it was the first gig we had done for them we would do it for £100, we then did a few gigs at a venue for a percentage of the bar takings, he then booked us to play a few songs and to loan our equipment for a battle of the bands bash on the promise of a paid gig with the venue a few weeks later.

 

The problem is when you accept gigs for low amounts of money, poor conditions etc not only do you get shafted in terms of pay but because you are undervaluing your services the venues treat you like dirt because they see you as cheap entertainment and nothing more.

 

I remember the above mentioned series of gigs we did at a venue for bar takings the staff would harass us to hurry up packing our kit up after we had just played a gig for them for basically the cost of a couple pints.

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by shoulderpet

[SumOne]

4 hours ago, Doctor J said:

 

Nope, I wouldn't say so, not in the digital age where reputations can be made or destroyed quite easily and quickly, i.e. a single social media post about his band playing to no-one, unable to draw an audience, seen by other landlords or promoters, does their reputation no favours at all. Everything you listed as something which could do them good can (and should) be practiced and worked on in a rehearsal room, not figured out on stage and in public.

 

The flip side is a lot more people attend than you expected, and an 'influencer' type walks in an posts positively about you to thousands of people. 

 

I'm not sure everything I listed can be done in rehersals - experiencing/learining about different sounds/setups for different live rooms, getting good at set up/pack down and learning to bring along the right gear for each eventuality, getting more comfortable and confident playing in different venues and in front of different people and all types of situation, and of course - playing live as a band and learning good stage presence and audience interaction. I dunno, I think that's all valuable experience that can't really be replicated in a rehersal room (that you have to pay for) and the positives generally outweigh the negatives. Each to their own though, there's no right or wrong answer.

 

 

 

 

[Skybone]

There's always "Sorry, we're already committed to something else on that date", which will bizarrely get cancelled...

[Mudpup]

Is it a bar in/near Brentwood, Essex by any chance?

 

I really wouldn't bother - you're building your confidence by the sounds of things and this won't help at all if no one shows up.

 

I don't think you can even treat it as a paid rehearsal either. Mainly on the basis that if 5 people do actually come through the door and drink £100 of beer they're going to be expecting to see some sort of band performance and not a practice. You'll be expected to treat it as a proper gig by the management or you definitely won't be getting paid at all. 

 

Plainly and simply, if any of you don't think it's worthwhile for any reason just don't do it. It can be because it doesn't pay enough for you, has a dodgy crowd/management, sound limiters, bad load in/out or anything like that. It's supposed to be fun unless it's your primary source of income.