Great tracks - why are they great??

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

12 hours ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

I will always love you is one song which would have me running for the off button every single time. I could just about cope with Dolly's version, but Whitney's is screechy, over sung, overbearing and overplayed to death. 

Agreed. Just awful. Absolutely obliterates it.

[SteveXFR]

It seems to me that to achieve greatness in terms of record sales, your music needs to be as mediocre as possible. See Coldplay and Ed Sheeran for examples. 

[Geek99]

I’m going to throw a snake into this Whitney-fest -  I cannot listen enough times to Bad, the song u2 did at live aid 

it was this moment when I knew I wanted a bass. 

 

I love the sweeping sensuality of the bass and the way it intertwines around the guitar . I vividly recall walking down a tree lined avenue in Greenwich Connecticut listening to the version off the unforgettable fire album on my Walkman . It’s just connected and Interlaced musically and lyrically and that is where I think reg Presley’s pixie dust can be found 

[Mykesbass]

4 hours ago, steantval said:

Could also be something to do with the superb guitar solo on it 👍

There is that, although the pedant in me needs to point out it is a guitar duet 😎

[TheGreek]

17 hours ago, SteveXFR said:

It seems to me that to achieve greatness in terms of record sales, your music needs to be as mediocre as possible. See Coldplay and Ed Sheeran for examples. 

 Is there a relationship between mediocrity and mass appeal?

[Dad3353]

12 minutes ago, TheGreek said:

 Is there a relationship between mediocrity and mass appeal?

 

If one takes the definition of 'mediocrity' to mean 'average', then it's not really a surprise that most populations would be appealed to, to a greater or lesser degree. If one interprets it in a pejorative light, it takes on a different hue. Just a question of point of view, really. Is being 'average' bad..? 

[Cliff Edge]

“Is being 'average' bad..?“

 

If it is then I’ve been bad the last 50 years. 

[TheGreek]

I've been expecting nominations for "Stairway to Heaven" and "Bohemian Rhapsody".

Not a fan of either TBH though I appreciate the musicianship involved - why do both feature on the Greatest songs of all time lists?

[Richard R]

6 minutes ago, TheGreek said:

I've been expecting nominations for "Stairway to Heaven" and "Bohemian Rhapsody".

Not a fan of either TBH though I appreciate the musicianship involved - why do both feature on the Greatest songs of all time lists?

 

How they make people feel at the end of the song, the journey they take the listener on.

Comfortably Numb is a great song too, for the same reason (and the second guitar solo, of course).

[Jackroadkill]

The Dropkick Murphys' version of Fields of Athenry makes me come over all funny; It's pretty much just a straight ahead punk cover but the rage at the helplessness of the protagonist's situation is sublime.

[Steve Browning]

There are going to be a number of factors that make a song great. In some instances, it could be down to production. In others the complete opposite. Looking at the list below, I do see a common thread and that is the harmonic content, how the bass will move against the melody at times. A few that I can think of:

 

Keane - Bend And Break

Dire Straits - Telegraph Road (the Alchemy version especially)

Sarah McLachlan -  Angel

Dire Straits - Brothers In Arms

Anggun - Eternal (if you don't know this, do your ears a huge treat and have a listen - best in her original Indonesian)

 

I'm in the Whitney camp as well. It's not a bad song but it is the vocal performance for me. Flawless control and immaculate use of dynamics.

[BigRedX]

On 24/11/2023 at 22:29, Eldon Tyrell said:

Ask Rick Beato.

 

Deconstructing a song from a musical PoV doesn't tell you why it is great.

[Leonard Smalls]

16 hours ago, TheGreek said:

Is there a relationship between mediocrity and mass appeal?

In my book, yes!

I find most "great" songs to be either massive cheese-fests, musically uninteresting or just generally lacking.

Frinstance, to me, oversung ballads such as "I will always love you" are just that little bit fake - they would never seem as real in emotional terms as, say, Patti Smith's "Horses".

And I see that in most popular music - anything real is toned down in order to not offend or, God forbid, challenge!

But then I want it heavy and in my face; while Mark Knopfler plays guitar beautifully it's just that little bit too wet and straighforward for my tastes. I'd much rather hear James Blood Ulmer or Sonny Sharrock (RIP!) wringing the necks of their guitars. You wouldn't see Tim Nice-But-Dim miming in front of his mirror with a tennis racquet to that 😁

[Richard R]

Based on the original post

 

On 24/11/2023 at 19:48, TheGreek said:

Let's not have the "eye of the beholder" discussion.

Great tracks and why they are "great" please.

 

we probably shouldn't be discussing these tracks, but where would the fun be in that 😁

 

@Leonard Smalls, do please explain why "Horses" is considered great. That, and indeed the rest of the album, I dislike intensely -  what am I missing?

 

[Steve Browning]

Do you have to like a track for it to be great? As the OP says. there's always an 'eye of the beholder' element at work. You would like to think that we, as musicians, could acknowledge someone's craft without necessarily liking their output.

 

I acknowledge Malmsteen's technique, but cannot listen to more than half a second of him.

 

 

[Rich]

On 24/11/2023 at 19:48, TheGreek said:

 

I will always love you - Whitney Houston

 

On 24/11/2023 at 21:24, peteb said:

 

A pretty safe choice there. Whether you like the genre or not, or even if you don't like the song, one of the greatest vocal performances ever recorded...! 

 

Not for me, it's not. ANDAAAAAAYEEEEAAAA WILLALLWAAYS LUVYOOOOOO, oh spare me please. The way the acrobatic OOOOOOs drift in and out of tune is like fingernails down a blackboard. Give me Dolly's original any day.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Rich

[Jackroadkill]

18 minutes ago, Rich said:

Give me Dolly's original any day.

 

Agreed; when I fall on the field of battle, it will be Dolly who swoops down to take to to Valhalla.

[Leonard Smalls]

1 hour ago, Richard R said:

why "Horses" is considered great. That, and indeed the rest of the album, I dislike intensely -  what am I missing?

Not sure it is! Or isn't!

Either way, I like it because it's intensely visceral. It's unflinching, there's no sugar coating, it has cojones, despite the fact that there's no vocal melody, there's only 5 notes altogether... And the beauty is, no-one has to like it - as has been said one man's great is another's grate.

Still, yer tis!

 

 

[tauzero]

"Since you been gone" by Rainbow is one I consider a great track, largely because of the guitar soloes where you feel every note has been carefully planned.

 

While I won't deny Whitney Houston's vocal ability, ISTM that her version of IWALY is done more to showcase her melismatics than to convey the emotion of the lyrics (see also Alexandra Burke's "Hallelujah").

[Jackroadkill]

1 hour ago, tauzero said:

(see also Alexandra Burke's "Hallelujah").

 

I really don't like that version.  It seems that whoever produced and arranged it completely failed to understand just about everything about what that song means.

[Mykesbass]

1 hour ago, tauzero said:

While I won't deny Whitney Houston's vocal ability, ISTM that her version of IWALY is done more to showcase her melismatics than to convey the emotion of the lyrics (see also Alexandra Burke's "Hallelujah").

Whitney's finest moment was her debut, Saving All My Love For You. A great performance in my opinion, and far better than IWALY.

 

Don't get me started on Alexandra Burke. You Don't Really Care For Music - didn't Simon Cowell spot the irony in that lyric?

[Cliff Edge]

1 hour ago, tauzero said:

 

While I won't deny Whitney Houston's vocal ability, ISTM that her version of IWALY is done more to showcase her melismatics than to convey the emotion of the lyrics (see also Alexandra Burke's "Hallelujah").

Whitney started a trend. Every wannabe diva trying to sing as many notes as possible over a single syllable.  Bloody infuriating. 

[peteb]

14 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

I'm in the Whitney camp as well. It's not a bad song but it is the vocal performance for me. Flawless control and immaculate use of dynamics.

 

Absolutely, of course it is. Generally regarded as one of the great (if not the greatest) soul divas of all time, as well one of the top R&B artists!

 

This kind of artistic Marxism bemuses me, the idea that if an artist is outstanding then you must find reasons to say they’re cr*p! There was a thread about great vocalists on here a while ago and there was one guy who hated every great rock vocalist (be it Robert Plant, Chris Cornell, Lou Gramm, Glenn Hughes or Paul Rodgers and many others). He hated them all, in fact the one rock singer he seemed to like was Kurt Cobain! Now, I like whiny, nihilist grunge as much as the next guy, and Nirvana are an example of a band that made a great record without relying on virtuoso performances, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t appreciate great singers! 

 

For the record, my favourite version of I Will Always Love You is the acoustic one that Chris Cornell did in tribute to Whitney a few days after she died. 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by peteb

[Marc S]

On 24/11/2023 at 20:24, Dad3353 said:

Topics such as this will, every time, receive a tribute to the much-missed Sandy Denny  ...

 

 

As a bonus, it's drumming like this that inspired me to take up drums, with that sly, discreet 'killer' whip on the hi-hat. Not much to fault with the Fairports of this epoch. 

Absolutely stunning track this. Lyrically, it is brilliant, especially considering Sandy was only in her 20's when she wrote it. 

I hadn't noticed the drumming in particular, but the playing on this song is understated, yet there's more to it when you listen carefully. I like Ashley's bass sound too - but Sandy's voice is just amazing.

[Leonard Smalls]

11 hours ago, peteb said:

This kind of artistic Marxism bemuses me, the idea that if an artist is outstanding then you must find reasons to say they’re cr*p! There was a thread about great vocalists on here a while ago and there was one guy who hated every great rock vocalist (be it Robert Plant, Chris Cornell, Lou Gramm, Glenn Hughes or Paul Rodgers and many others). He hated them all, in fact the one rock singer he seemed to like was Kurt Cobain! Now, I like whiny, nihilist grunge as much as the next guy,

I note the use of the pejorative "whiney" (not Whitney! 😁) in order to get a little dig in at our baggy cardigan wearing brethren...

But on the first point, there's many factors at play; if something is pushed down your throat and all the media are equally gushing about it some folks are bound to push back a little. This may be out of sheer bloody-mindedness ("don't you tell me what to think!"), or it not being to one's taste, or perhaps seeing that it's all a bit Emperor's New Clothes.

But "the idea  that ... an artist is outstanding" is just that. It's an expression of taste - there is no absolute. After all, if the ultimate expression of quality was how popular something was we'd all only eat at Maccy-D's, we'd only watch "Strictly" and "I'm a Celebrity", and we'd only read Dan Brown...

Bear in mind that many of the world's best musicians (if one counts skill level as best!) are completely dismissed here as unlistenable jazz nonsense!